Pudding hands and marshmallow fingers...

[dinulip]

One of my pupils - a 14-year-old boy - who has been learning the piano since he was eleven, has somewhat weak hands and fingers.  Despite his best efforts, he still cannot play over mezzo-forte.  He plays scales (although not enough), Hanon exercises, A Dozen-a-Day... but that doesn't seem to do the trick!  Most of his fingertips literally 'collapse' on the keys!  

Any advice as to how to develop a pianist's hand muscles will be greatly appreciated!

[p2u_]

Any advice as to how to develop a pianist's hand muscles will be greatly appreciated!

If you diagnosed the problem correctly and physical exercises is indeed what the boy needs, then I think you could work in different directions.

1) For the collapsing joints:
Let the boy place one of his hands on a desk top, approximately ready to play the piano. With one finger of the other hand, have him press slightly on a weak knuckle of the hand to be exercised, trying to collapse it. The finger joint should resist, never allowing the knuckle to collapse. If it collapses, he should just apply less pressure. Have him hold the slight pressure for several seconds. The arm muscles should not tense and the arm should not be allowed to push down on the weak finger!

2) For the underdeveloped hand muscles:
Get him something like Power Putty that is used for physical therapy. There are different resistance levels. Ask in the shop and tell them what it's for. Start from "easy" (usually yellow in color) and work up to "medium" (green). Don't take "hard" because that will really be too hard on the boy's hands. Usually they sell it with a set of exercise instructions. All children without exception like it. I think you will be able to find video clips on YouTube that show how it works.

Paul

[maitea]

Paul has the orthodox good way, the barbaric a la basqueversion I did when I was younger, was to do push ups against the wall.. I know, sounds crazy-it is. Obviously not flathanded, but with the hand shaped, fingertips in the wall forming the arch...Regulating the distance to the wall, you moderate the degree of intensity.. however, I'd obviously would take this with a pinch, or two of salt! Done incorrectly could be far more harmful than benefitial, so I'm really telling this more as an anecdote, than an advice. Though.. I actually do have a very strong muscly hand, however I can't really tell how much the push ups did, or just time at the piano

It takes time, but with slow careful practice, the hand should get toned by the correct weight and use of the muscles, but if the case is as sever as you say, then the off keybard methods Paul gave you will speed the process!

[ppianista]

One of my pupils - a 14-year-old boy - who has been learning the piano since he was eleven, has somewhat weak hands and fingers.  Despite his best efforts, he still cannot play over mezzo-forte.

I'm not sure I get that right. Do you really think, the necessary power to play forte has to come from the hands and fingers?? So that this problem can be solved by strengthening the muscles there??

The muscles are just strong enough if the fingers can "carry" the weight of the arm. Because this is where the power should come from - definitely NOT from the muscles. 

I have seen a 6 year old girl playing a Mozart piano concerto, and I cannot imagine that a boy of 14 could have weaker hands than a little girl. 

[keypeg]

I haven't seen a description of his overall playing.  There is more involved than just fingers and hands.  Is he a transfer student?

[dinulip]

I haven't seen a description of his overall playing.  There is more involved than just fingers and hands.  Is he a transfer student?

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a 'transfer student'?

[p2u_]

Do you really think, the necessary power to play forte has to come from the hands and fingers?? So that this problem can be solved by strengthening the muscles there??

Sometimes students have what I call "Asian finger joints" that collapse at even the least amount of resistance. In that case, you have no choice but to work this way, yes, of course combining this approach with proper alignment at the instrument. This does NOT mean that the piano should be played with physical force coming from isolated body parts!

Paul

[p2u_]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is a 'transfer student'?

Has the student been your student from the very beginning, or did he first work with somebody else?

Paul

[dinulip]

Has the student been your student from the very beginning, or did he first work with somebody else?

Paul

He began with me a little over three years ago.  His talent is average, but he is very intelligent, enjoys playing the piano, and practises regularly.  I thought that with time, his hands would naturally gain some strength -- especially since his parents bought him a good piano (Yamaha U3), a year ago.  They probably did, but considering that he is 14, I would expect him to have a little more "sound".  

I am planning to have him play scales and arpeggios in the coming months.  Hopefully, this will help...

[p2u_]

I am planning to have him play scales and arpeggios in the coming months.  Hopefully, this will help...

Personally, I have my doubts. The problem of how to move one key per each finger without collapsing any of the fingers should be solved first. Then 2 notes, etc. Scales and arpeggios are OK as soon as you already have the technique to do them correctly.

Paul

[dinulip]

The problem of how to move one key per each finger without collapsing any of the fingers should be solved first. Then 2 notes, etc.

That makes sense.  I will take a more 'microscopic' approach to the problem -- and see how we can strengthen his weak fingers one by one.  Any printed materials that you could recommend for a Grade-3 student?  If not, I will invent some exercises myself.

[p2u_]

That makes sense.  I will take a more 'microscopic' approach to the problem -- and see how we can strengthen his weak fingers one by one.  Any printed materials that you could recommend for a Grade-3 student?  If not, I will invent some exercises myself.

No, not without having actually seen the boy. This is not something one can categorize into traditional grade systems. It is the very essentials of piano playing. Some students solve this intuitively; others need a special approach. If you feel you are not ready for this yourself, please, be humble and make the right choice for him: refer him to a colleague who has worked with this kind of problems.

Paul

[outin]

I am not a teacher but I have had collapsing joints as well. And I still occasionally have days when my fingers feel like rubber first until I work them into proper state. So I suspect it's not so much about the strength of the muscles but it's about learning to activate them in a correct time and way. I would think an exercise works if it teaches this coordination. It could also be partly mental, for some reason the student overrelaxes when he is supposed to play. He may also be worried or confused about what to do.

[ppianista]

from outin:
So I suspect it's not so much about the strength of the muscles but it's about learning to activate them in a correct time and way. I would think an exercise works if it teaches this coordination. It could also be partly mental, for some reason the student overrelaxes when he is supposed to play. He may also be worried or confused about what to do.

Yes, I agree.

Maybe the boy hasn't developed a feeling for balancing his arm weight on his fingers. But it's hard to tell without seeing his playing.

I think "puddding hands" (and pudding arms) are wonderful for playing the piano - as a starting point. Because piano "technique" is all about doing as little as possible by muscle strength.

[ppianista]

Wonderful pudding  fingers:

 

[p2u_]

Wonderful pudding  fingers:

FxhbAGwEYGQ

Horowitz had unusually strong hands and is an inappropriate example in this context. Although he economized his movements to the maximum, there's no pudding there at all.

Paul

[dinulip]

Horowitz had unusually strong hands and is an inappropriate example in this context. Although he economized his movements to the maximum, there's no pudding there at all.

I totally agree with you, Paul : no pudding there at all!  Given the extraordinary strength of his fingers, Horowitz could play with hands flat out on the keyboard, and still produce a round and powerful sound.  If my pupil's hands were like that, I would probably be touring the world with him today, instead of expressing my concerns on this forum!!    

[ppianista]

Horowitz had unusually strong hands and is an inappropriate example in this context. Although he economized his movements to the maximum, there's no pudding there at all.

Maybe you don't want to understand what I meant by this example. Just take a close look at Horowitz's fingers while he's playing. You will see: In many parts his fingers are so relaxed that they COULD be as soft as marshmallow. There, the necessary strength obviously doesn't come from his fingers or hands but  just from gravity.

When he plays forte, you can see: The fingers keep being relaxed, but here the sinews are active in order to carry the augmented weight.


So the lesson to be learned here goes: Use as little muscle strength as possible if you want to play relaxed and with a clear, warm, rich, colorful and soft sound.  

But - if you want to play with a harsh and dry sound; if you never want to play very fast passages and complicated scores, if you like cramps in your hands and arms - THEN you should try to play with much will power and apply your muscles with as much strength as possible. And then it is an excellent idea to strengthen your hands and fingers by mechanical exercises (like those which have been described above).
 

[p2u_]

So the lesson to be learned here goes: [...]

Any idea who you are trying to teach, ppianista?
I repeat: Horowitz is about the worst example you could give when we are talking about pudding hands and marshmallow fingers.

P.S.: Instead of assuming incompetence in the topic starter as a teacher, you could perhaps say something ON topic? For example: How do YOU solve this kind of collapsing joints in your students if not along the lines indicated in reply #1?



Paul

[maitea]

Yes, gravity seems to be misbehaving with the pianist in the photo..

[ppianista]

Any idea who you are trying to teach, ppianistaHow do YOU solve this kind of collapsing joints in your students if not along the lines indicated in reply #1?

Up to now I watched those collapsing finger-joints only with children. I'm not dogmatic about a one and only way to touch the keys correctly, so I'm patient and simply wait till they grow it out.

But: My pupils begin with playing non legato and supporting their fingers with their arms right from the start. They learn not to "press" the keys down but to "hop" or "dance" on them. So they feel that it only needs a short impulse to bring the keys down. When they play legato, on a further step, they already "know" that it isn't necessary to keep up pressure for the whole duration of each tone. And, as far as my experience tells me, that - unnecessarily - prolonged pressure on the keyground, while "holding" a tone, is the main cause of the collapsing finger-joints.


Btw: If a 14yo boy really has so weak sinews and muscles that he can't build an "arch" with his fingers, he might have a medical problem; and that should be treated by a doctor. Definitely NOT with any mechanical exercises.

[p2u_]

Btw: If a 14yo boy really has so weak sinews and muscles that he can't build an "arch" with his fingers, he might have a medical problem; and that should be treated by a doctor. Definitely NOT with any mechanical exercises.

Thank you for your professional reply.

As I said, such collapsing joints are mostly prominent in Asian fingers (adults too). Doctors don't really know what to do with them because objectively, there's nothing wrong. Not solving the problem, though, means - no hope of virtuoso pieces and/or a career because it doesn't get better with time.

Minimum resistance without allowing the joint to collapse is the standard solution proposed by physio-therapists, much like a baby with collapsing knees who learns to walk.

Paul

[brogers70]

p2u. I agree with your original advice. I am an adult (non-Asian) and I had collapsing knuckles on my fifth (and to a much lesser extent) my fourth fingers. My teacher suggested exercises very similar to yours and there has been a gradual improvement. The exercises are very gentle, and deciding that you need to do them in no way means that you think that the primary motive force for playing the piano comes from your fingers.

[nyiregyhazi]

Maybe you don't want to understand what I meant by this example. Just take a close look at Horowitz's fingers while he's playing. You will see: In many parts his fingers are so relaxed that they COULD be as soft as marshmallow. There, the necessary strength obviously doesn't come from his fingers or hands but  just from gravity.

When he plays forte, you can see: The fingers keep being relaxed, but here the sinews are active in order to carry the augmented weight.

Objectively this is totally implausible. I've recently been doing exercises based on putting the entire finger length parallel against the keys with the thumb pointing straight down and resting gently against the piano. Gravity does not move the keys, as the hand and arm are not seen to fall. Neither do Horowitz's. It simply sets up a position where mere existence of the arm's mass provides tremendous quality of support to movement from the knuckle- which needs a very well developed action. It's about perceiving the right activities to use, not trying to stay in relaxed inactivity (which ironically squashes the hand and forces instinctive compensations to work the fingers far harder for less gain)

What are active sinews anyway? Please elaborate on how one achieves the experience of activating sinews while keeping relaxed fingers (while also using gravity despite only the tiny mass of the finger actually descending)...

[ppianista]

Gravity does not move the keys, as the hand and arm are not seen to fall. Neither do Horowitz's. It simply sets up a position where mere existence of the arm's mass provides tremendous quality of support to movement from the knuckle- which needs a very well developed action.

Yes, you are right. But perhaps we do agree that there are different ways of action.
One way would be to move the keys merely by muscular power. The other way - the right one - is to reduce muscular action to a minimum by applying the weight and the momentum of the arm.

What are active sinews anyway? Please elaborate on how one achieves the experience of activating sinews while keeping relaxed fingers (while also using gravity despite only the tiny mass of the finger actually descending)...

I think you know by your own experience what I mean. When you strike a key and hold it down you can do this either by sheer muscular power or you can do it by using the weight of the arm. In the second case, the muscles and sinews are active, too, but what they do is carrying the weigt of arm. If the muscles are strong enough for this, it gives you a relaxed feeling while "standing" on the key. And in fact it IS a far more relaxed action than the first one.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes, you are right. But perhaps we do agree that there are different ways of action.
One way would be to move the keys merely by muscular power. The other way - the right one - is to reduce muscular action to a minimum by applying the weight and the momentum of the arm. I think you know by your own experience what I mean.

Not really. Momentum is the product of movement and mass. Seeing as I explained that Horowitz is not applying an individual downward movement of the arm for every key depression, momentum is completely the wrong word. Arm momentum is not part of the picture. Nothing is is falling. The mass of the arm merely needs to be in existence, to balance the fingers and absorb the reactions to their motion. If the fingers don't create the movement, nothing can compensate for that.

When you strike a key and hold it down you can do this either by sheer muscular power or you can do it by using the weight of the arm. In the second case, the muscles and sinews are active, too, but what they do is carrying the weigt of arm. If the muscles are strong enough for this, it gives you a relaxed feeling while "standing" on the key. And in fact it IS a far more relaxed action than the first one.

Again, you speak with unequivocal certainty but I am wholly certain that you are wrong. Let's start with some simple objective facts. It takes 50g or so to keep the key depressed (this figure is often used misleadingly in terms of creating sound- that requires notably more, but it's accurate when it comes to keeping a key down). How much force do you think it requires to support the weight of the arm? You think forcing the fingers to support arm weight, as an indirect means of keeping the key down, might possibly be LESS than directly perceiving the equivalent force to 50g? Not a chance. No sane human could even begin to believe this- had they not been deeply misled by pseudoscientific explanations from the armweight school. I'd stop and ask some serious questions.

I'd be interested if you were to work through the exercises in my most recent blog post (available by clicking my signature link) and report your experiences and whether you still hold that view. It's specifically about how superficial the impression that armweight reduces the finger's effort is. Follow the exercises as described and you should rapidly discover quite how much less effort exists in the forearm if you learn how to apply a small focused activity with intent and then reduce the weight that bears down on it. If dead armweight seems like less work, it's objectively certain either that the extent of exertion just hasn't been perceived, or that there's not actually all that much armweight involved and this is just an illusion. Using the finger muscles to match the mere 50g required is only more effort when you don't perform the right quality of activity (or if the arm gets bunched up forwards, without hanging back well).

[ppianista]

...had they not been deeply misled by pseudoscientific explanations from the armweight school.

Oh, so this comes down to a battle between "schools" and "pseudoscientific" and "true" explanations? Sorry, but I'm not going there.

I'm absolutely fine with the armweight "school" and the results obtained by their inventors/disciples - such as Claudio Arrau. If it is possible to think so wrong and to get to play so wonderfully by it like Claudio Arrau in fact did, then I'll go on cherishing these untrue explanations like a gospel.
 

In Germany, there's a saying among medics that goes: "Wer heilt, hat Recht." He who can actually cure is in the right - no matter if his theory be wrong.

[nyiregyhazi]

Oh, so this comes down to a battle between "schools" and "pseudoscientific" and "true" explanations? Sorry, but I'm not going there.

I'm absolutely fine with the armweight "school" and the results obtained by their inventors/disciples - such as Claudio Arrau. If it is possible to think so wrong and to get to play so wonderfully by it like Claudio Arrau in fact did, then I'll go on cherishing these untrue explanations like a gospel.
 

In Germany, there's a saying among medics that goes: "Wer heilt, hat Recht." He who can actually cure is in the right - no matter if his theory be wrong.

Sure. The whole problem with the bogus assertion that armweight makes for less effort in the hand is that it rarely cures. It specifically caused my problems- distracting me from the functionally useful and less effortful activity of the hand that is possible, compared to the coarse ones that armweight forces it into without choice. It can help some people, certainly. However, in cases where it works it has more to do with what the teacher SHOWS the student to do than with the irrational assertion that it's less effort to make the hand support the weight of the arm than it is to make it exert a tiny force to keep the key down. The more you put weight on the bogus explanation, the more likely you are to miss the potentially useful aspects of the method- seeing as success hinges on not doing anything remotely resembling what is being asked for. As I show in the exercises in my blog post, it's easy to show benefits of a weighted arm- but if you leave it there and think that gives the whole picture (or assume that you'll have found the lowest effort from doing so) then you get a totally skewed impression.

Many people have problems that are helped by thinking of armweight but, ultimately, anyone who seriously thinks it's less effort to rest the arm significantly on the hand (than to reduce the pressure) is going to give themself an extremely hard time in freeing their hands up from unnecessarily high hand pressures. Anyone who rests significant weight down works their hand harder. It's that simple and there's no possible line of argument with that. Personally, I don't see a bogus assertion (that resting weight down supposedly works the hand less) as being a particularly sensible way of getting to the stage where you free your hand up by avoiding unnecessary weight on it. It takes a remarkably lucky student to turn instructions that exist in direct opposition reality in every single aspect into something effective.

Beneath the surface, armweight can only work if it triggers useful activities in the hand (not the nothingness you claim) and if the student feels how weightedness becomes a burden and figures out how to lighten the arm while switching to more proactive role in the hand. It takes a hell of a stretch for an intent to do the opposite of these things to work.

[ppianista]

Beneath the surface, armweight can only work if it triggers useful activities in the hand (not the nothingness you claim) and if the student feels how weightedness becomes a burden and figures out how to lighten the arm while switching to more proactive role in the hand.

Sorry, I don't claim any "nothingness". You seem to misread what I'm trying to say. And, of course, using the armweight also can mean to take it away when necessary. I'm not talking of something static here, though I use the word "gravity". Gravity is a factor in ALL our motions, and moving in a skilfull, elegant, natural, subtle way always means: moving along WITH gravity, i.e. in a manner that it supports your efforts and doesn't work against it as a burden.
(To illustrate what I mean I would point to the eastern martial arts like Kendo, Karate, Kung Fu, Aikido, Judo etc.)

[nyiregyhazi]

Sorry, I don't claim any "nothingness". You seem to misread what I'm trying to say. And, of course, using the armweight also can mean to take it away when necessary. I'm not talking of something static here, though I use the word "gravity". Gravity is a factor in ALL our motions, and moving in a skilfull, elegant, natural, subtle way always means: moving WITH gravity, i.e. in a manner that it supports your efforts and doesn't work against it as a burden.
(To illustrate what I mean I would point to the eastern martial arts like Kendo, Karate, Kung Fu, Judo etc.)

You didn't say nothingness, but you advised it by implication- when claiming gravity can replace active hand use (and worse still, asserting that it works the hand less).

Can you clarify what you mean with the specifics, when you speak of moving with gravity. At the end of my blog post, I give a simple proof of how it is by acting in the OPPOSITE direction to gravity that we reduce our workload in supporting it. Trying to go with it typically increases the workload- Eg. standing and then allowing gravity to severely bend the knees or allowing the neck to crane forward. What do you mean by going with it? Nothing creates a bigger workload than allowing gravity to droop you by going with it. The trick is to know which actions that oppose it will save you effort. It's counterintuitive, but the most useful actions in making peace with gravity often have to oppose it. It's easy to relax the arm. The reason it's harder to do so in a sustainable context is because you also need to know which actions must oppose gravity, not to burden the hand with compensatory stiffness. Relaxing the arm under gravity is barely even the first rung of the ladder and will not be kept up unless the hand is trained to play its part.

[ppianista]

Can you clarify what you mean with the specifics, when you speak of moving with gravity. At the end of my blog post, I give a simple proof of how it is by acting in the OPPOSITE direction to gravity that we reduce our workload in supporting it.

I get the feeling that this is a quarrel about words. You seem constantly to misread mine in order to advertise your own theory.

Do you know Till Eulenspiegel? See here:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel

Many of his pranks resulted from his literal interpretations of figurative language. If he'd read "moving along with gravity" he would most certainly have understood it the way you do.

If I really meant by this expression what you take out of it - how comes that I pointed to Aikido, Kendo etc. as best illustrations for what I mean? Is Kendo the art of falling flat to the ground with a sword in your hand?
 

[nyiregyhazi]

I get the feeling that this is a quarrel about words. You seem constantly to misread mine in order to advertise your own theory.

Do you know Till Eulenspiegel? See here:  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Till_Eulenspiegel

Many of his pranks resulted from his literal interpretations of figurative language. If he'd read "moving along with gravity" he would most certainly have understood it the way you do.

If I really meant by this expression what you take out of it - how comes that I pointed to Aikido, Kendo etc. as best illustrations for what I mean? Is Kendo the art of falling flat to the ground with a sword in your hand?
 

I was simply asking for specifics and illustrating the sheer extent of how misleading a deeply imprecise phrase can be. In no respect whatsoever is either standing up in good posture or getting the hand to stand up against gravity felt as "moving along with gravity". It's the inverse of what such a phrase will typically cause- unless you clarify that direction is not down "with gravity" but up against gravity. If the phrase is not to be be taken literally (and how is anyone to know?) it doesn't even mean anything obvious at all. It's just vagueness that at best inspires something not stated by luck and at worst appears to ask for the direct opposite of what works.

Also, you still didn't provide those specifics. Could you clarify what you did mean with some some precision? Equally, how do you define failure to move with gravity?

[ppianista]

I was simply asking for specifics and illustrating the sheer extent of how misleading a deeply imprecise phrase can be.

Do you have an idea as to why playing the piano is taught in personal contact - like all other arts?

My answer would be: Because the necessary know-how can only be acquired by doing. Because no "description" whatsoever can produce the right performance.

I think your striving after the "precise description" is caused by a slight misunderstanding. Sure, you only want to get it right. But to get it right IN WORDS will gain nobody nothing. 

[nyiregyhazi]

Do you have an idea as to why playing the piano is taught in personal contact - like all other arts?

My answer would be: Because the necessary know-how can only be acquired by doing. Because no "description" whatsoever can produce the right performance.

I think your striving after the "precise description" is caused by a slight misunderstanding. Sure, you only want to get it right. But to get it right IN WORDS will gain nobody nothing.  

It will if it leads to a better understanding- rather than outright misunderstanding caused by careless language. The fact that a drooping finger that follows gravity will hinder is a huge foundation stone of knowledge to build on in practise. This simple realisation is a huge start to anyone trying to fix the hindrance of unclear arm weight descriptions. I notice that you weren't quite so quick to present such a stance when you were claiming that the trick is to use gravity rather than activate the hand- a subjective illusion that is ruinous to many when conveyed without practical demonstrations of what they really need to be doing.

Without a teacher there to show the difference between the description and what actually works, thinking of going with gravity via a passive hand will cause disastrous collapse and associated physical strain more often than not.

[okanaganmusician]

It should be easier to play loud, than to play soft if done properly.

Fingers are often weak at a young age, but teaching a student to use gravity's downward forces when playing piano can overcome this.  This also helps them to maintain a relaxed hand and wrist, as they realize it's not them doing the work but gravity itself. 

Practicing the old "let your hand fall onto the keys" technique can be helpful here.

It's important to see the fingers as an extension of the hand, wrist and arm - rather than being isolated like 10 little robots on the keys.

Firm fingers are important but those will come with time and physical maturation.  In the meantime, let gravity do it's thing.

[dinulip]

It's important to see the fingers as an extension of the hand, wrist and arm - rather than being isolated like 10 little robots on the keys.

Firm fingers are important but those will come with time and physical maturation.  In the meantime, let gravity do it's thing.

I like that.  Here again, thanks to you, Okanagan Musician,
for this straight-to-the-point comment!

[j_menz]

I wonder if, rather than being a physical issue, it's a psychological one. Maybe he is just scared to play too loud? Not necessarily of breaking the piano (though that's a possibility), but of making a harsh sound, or of being emotionally expressive, or even of being just annoying.

[outin]

I wonder if, rather than being a physical issue, it's a psychological one. Maybe he is just scared to play too loud? Not necessarily of breaking the piano (though that's a possibility), but of making a harsh sound, or of being emotionally expressive, or even of being just annoying.

Or worried about hitting the right notes? I have this annoying tendency to not play the key properly when I am not 100% sure of the coming note, as if the wrong note will be less harmful when it's not properly audible...it's an instinct, not something I do on purpose...

[brogers70]

Or worried about hitting the right notes? I have this annoying tendency to not play the key properly when I am not 100% sure of the coming note, as if the wrong note will be less harmful when it's not properly audible...it's an instinct, not something I do on purpose...

Pecca fortiter. A good maxim for this problem, but hard to stick to.

[outin]

Pecca fortiter. A good maxim for this problem, but hard to stick to.

My teacher has told me several times that I need to learn to play wrong...ignore the mistakes...and I agree, but it's just so damn difficult to let go when one is kind of a control freak...and seems I never miss an error, whether it's a wrong note, sloppy note, bad voicing or a rhytmic irregularity...in fact when I play I often hear nothing but imperfections...

So how does one practice playing wrong? 

[nyiregyhazi]

My teacher has told me several times that I need to learn to play wrong...ignore the mistakes...and I agree, but it's just so damn difficult to let go when one is kind of a control freak...and seems I never miss an error, whether it's a wrong note, sloppy note, bad voicing or a rhytmic irregularity...in fact when I play I often hear nothing but imperfections...

So how does one practice playing wrong?  

You just need to reframe it. What sounds more "wrong"? Someone who keeps stopping and playing things twice or someone who carries on with the musical flow?

That said, encouraging yourself to tolerate sloppiness is not the way forward, in my opinion. Use high standards as a positive, but channel it into preparing yourself to be certain you get what you want BEFORE any error has occurred. If you're not confident of what is about to occur, stop and think rather than hope you survive the next bit unscathed. Never play a note with a sense of panic or instability. If you don't feel ready, stop completely before anything has the chance to go wrong. The real art is not in pressing on past sloppiness, but knowing how to detect it before it even happens and prevent it from ever occurring. Obviously you have to let certain things go in performance, but I think the inner game ideas are far too encouraging of casual sloppiness in practise. Casually going on after such slopiness is scarcely better than stopping every time you notice it. When practising, your high standards are a positive, but learn to apply them BEFORE you screw up, not after.

[outin]

You just need to reframe it. What sounds more "wrong"? Someone who keeps stopping and playing things twice or someone who carries on with the musical flow?


That said, encouraging yourself to tolerate sloppiness is not the way forward, in my opinion. Use high standards as a positive, but channel it into preparing yourself to be certain you get what you want BEFORE any error has occurred. If you're not confident of what is about to occur, stop and think rather than hope you survive the next bit unscathed. Never play a note with a sense of panic or instability. If you don't feel ready, stop completely before anything has the chance to go wrong. The real art is not in pressing on past sloppiness, but knowing how to detect it before it even happens and prevent it from ever occurring. Obviously you have to let certain things go in performance, but I think the inner game ideas are far too encouraging of casual sloppiness in practise. Casually going on after such slopiness is scarcely better than stopping every time you notice it. When practising, your high standards are a positive, but learn to apply them BEFORE you screw up, not after.

That sounds very smart and I think that is why I like practicing so much more than actual playing. I like it when I can have my time if I need it and also analyze what happened afterwards if something doesn't sound the way I like and start working on it immediately. But it would be nice sometimes to play things the best I can and when (inevitably) something goes wrong I could just forget it and go on. I usually can for a short while but it still keeps bothering me and thinking (half consciously) about it takes from my already weak concentration skill on the rest of the piece and sooner or later I hit a wall and don't know where I am and what to play...so I would really need to learn not to dwell on what happened...

[brogers70]

My teacher has told me several times that I need to learn to play wrong...ignore the mistakes...and I agree, but it's just so damn difficult to let go when one is kind of a control freak...and seems I never miss an error, whether it's a wrong note, sloppy note, bad voicing or a rhytmic irregularity...in fact when I play I often hear nothing but imperfections...

So how does one practice playing wrong? 

You might try recording yourself and then listening to the recording the next day. When I've done that I've often noticed many good things that had slipped past me while playing because I was too worried about imperfections. You may find that with a little distance you sound better than you think.

You don't at all sound like the sort of person who is at risk of degenerating into perpetual sloppiness. Maybe just reducing the fear of mistakes could reduce physical tension which itself is responsible for a lot of mistakes. Helene Grimaud said something like "A mistake made from elan sounds better than a mistake made from timidity."

A separate point, I've often found that playing the piece through slowly, slowly enough that I really have no worries about mistakes, at the end of the practice session, helps a lot in removing stuttering errors.

[ajspiano]

My teacher has told me several times that I need to learn to play wrong...ignore the mistakes...and I agree, but it's just so damn difficult to let go when one is kind of a control freak...and seems I never miss an error, whether it's a wrong note, sloppy note, bad voicing or a rhytmic irregularity...in fact when I play I often hear nothing but imperfections...

So how does one practice playing wrong? 

When you practice a small figure that you are making an error in.. rather than stalling and doing any kind of mental or physical "hovering" getting yourself in position making sure you play it right..  before you move at all, anticipate what you are going to do totally in your head. Then do it, with total disregard to the idea of getting it right.. just shoot and miss.

Repeat the process, your aim will improve... if it doesnt, do it slower but with the same sense of deliberate intent from the second you start to move.

Get used to feeling like you just go for it and damn the consequences, not like you have to constantly check your aim all the time.

*balanced of course with other practice so you don't practice in errors.

[j_menz]

That sounds very smart and I think that is why I like practicing so much more than actual playing. I like it when I can have my time if I need it and also analyze what happened afterwards if something doesn't sound the way I like and start working on it immediately. But it would be nice sometimes to play things the best I can and when (inevitably) something goes wrong I could just forget it and go on. I usually can for a short while but it still keeps bothering me and thinking (half consciously) about it takes from my already weak concentration skill on the rest of the piece and sooner or later I hit a wall and don't know where I am and what to play...so I would really need to learn not to dwell on what happened...

You need to be able to do both practicing and playing.  Even if you are only doing it for yourself. They teach you different things about a piece.

One of the things that helped me learn to keep going regardless was playing in a church. Wrong notes were forgivable, but stopping was clearly not.

I'm not suggesting you take up a religious vocation, but look for opportunities to play under similar circumstances. Together with others, or even to a recording.

[outin]

You need to be able to do both practicing and playing.  Even if you are only doing it for yourself. They teach you different things about a piece.

One of the things that helped me learn to keep going regardless was playing in a church. Wrong notes were forgivable, but stopping was clearly not.

I'm not suggesting you take up a religious vocation, but look for opportunities to play under similar circumstances. Together with others, or even to a recording.

Yeah, religious stuff is out of the question 

I just don't really want to play with others...my teacher always has to force me to play with her... I know it would be good for me, but it's just so annoying. I think it would also help if I could learn to accompany my own singing, I don't know why it's so hard. I have a couple of songs that I could practice. I admit I am too good in avoiding things that I don't like doing 

[j_menz]

I think it would also help if I could learn to accompany my own singing

Probably not much (at least for this purpose).  You can stop and start your singing without problems or repercussions. Your fellow musos in a group setting, and even church congregations, will thump you the second time you stop for reasons short of dire medical emergency.

[outin]

You might try recording yourself and then listening to the recording the next day. When I've done that I've often noticed many good things that had slipped past me while playing because I was too worried about imperfections. You may find that with a little distance you sound better than you think.

This is true, the recordings always sound bad if I listen to them immediately because I already know what went wrong...

Some things like Bach just seems to be only tolerable when immaculate, any imperfection completely ruins the music for me... it's not quite as bad with the romantic stuff or even Scarlatti, I can get past the little things better there.

[outin]

Probably not much (at least for this purpose).  You can stop and start your singing without problems or repercussions.

Not really, because my other self will not let me...I may slow down but I do have to finish the song (some kind of OCD?)...and I think that is exactly why I find it so hard to do

[ppianista]

I just don't really want to play with others...

Do you like to play FOR others, then?