Sitting high at the keys- at least in competiitons...

[wnlqxod]

Now, amongst concert pianists, I will admit that I witness a more varied posture, from as low as Gould to as flat as Horowitz to... I dunno  .
It seems that in piano competitions, and particularly in ones geared for young adults, I see a rather uniform posture: high enough for the legs to be obtuse, elbows way above key level, upper body stooping over the keys, etc.
What is up with this trend? I am convinced that this is more than just an "individual" thing because I am seeing a trend of this phenomenon in piano competitions.
YES, I AM AWARE ABOUT THE "STOOL FACTOR". However, they seem to sit that way even when the stool is a working, adjustable one.

[richard black]

The common factor is that they are all young pianists. Most pianists find it more reassuring to sit high when they are younger, and as we get older some of us realise it's more comfortable lower down, with no lasting ill effect on flexibility.

[invictious]

Funnily enough, I used to prefer to sit lower down because I thought it would give me greater flexibility.

Now I prefer sitting higher up because I feel that it gives me great power and control over my piano playing.

I think one thing to take into account is the fact that grand pianos are set higher than upright pianos, so the pianists need to sit higher. Of course, when in a performance or competition setting, you want to sit at the height relative to the piano that you normally practice with.

[rjarsenault1101]

i find this funny, when I play for my jazz band, I get the option between the piano bench, or a regular band chair, I always chose the bench. But once, I didn't get that option. I had to use the chair cause the bench was being used. I found it a lot better and more relaxed than the bench.

[nyiregyhazi]

Now I prefer sitting higher up because I feel that it gives me great power and control over my piano playing.

I don't want to oversimplify, as some people play very well from a high stool. However, when you look at the greatest artists with a big resonant FFF rather than a percussive one, few sit especially high. I see a lot of young competition players with a very rough and poorly differentiated sound, who sit very high. It usually involves significant arm force and a hand that merely braces - limiting the scope for control of voicing. I forget whether trifonov sits high but found his playing on youtube a massive let down. He has some very beautiful sounds in lyrical passages of the chopin 3rd sonata, but the moment he plays loud it's the same old "professional" sound- loud but coarse and lumpy, with scarcely any differentiation of sound between fingers. Whether he himself sits high or not, that's the type of sound I hear over and over from players on high stools. If you sit high you need to be very careful not to produce the big sounds by thrusting the arm down through a braced hand. Pianists with a truly interesting "big" sound that sit high are few and far between.

PS I'm not arguing for extreme low stools, but I'm always wary of pianists who sit with the elbow significantly higher than the level of the keys. You can almost always hear it in their sound. When you're lower and the hand operates well, you can dispense with the forceful thrusts that make the likes of kissin and barenboim sound quite so rough and monotonous in anything loud. But if you're low and the hand doesn't work well to differentiate between voices, it's no better simply because of the stool height.

[thalbergmad]

I sit rather high myself for no other reason that I like the look of the keys from that elevation.

If it limits me in any way, I am unsure how.

Thal

[birba]

Sitting at a piano in a competition should be no different then practising at home.  Or maybe this wasn't the question...

[wnlqxod]

I don't want to oversimplify, as some people play very well from a high stool. However, when you look at the greatest artists with a big resonant FFF rather than a percussive one, few sit especially high. I see a lot of young competition players with a very rough and poorly differentiated sound, who sit very high. It usually involves significant arm force and a hand that merely braces - limiting the scope for control of voicing. I forget whether trifonov sits high but found his playing on youtube a massive let down. He has some very beautiful sounds in lyrical passages of the chopin 3rd sonata, but the moment he plays loud it's the same old "professional" sound- loud but coarse and lumpy, with scarcely any differentiation of sound between fingers. Whether he himself sits high or not, that's the type of sound I hear over and over from players on high stools. If you sit high you need to be very careful not to produce the big sounds by thrusting the arm down through a braced hand. Pianists with a truly interesting "big" sound that sit high are few and far between.

Then, who are some of the pianists that have a truly colourful fortissimo, rather than just a lump of "boom"? Also, unless you need to do some voicing control (sounding the melody note in a chord being one of them), isn't it a good idea to make sure that no notes "stick out of the texture" too much relative to the others?
Also, can you provide some examples where Kissin, Barenboim, heck, any of the "high-elbow" pianists butchering voicing with the "arm thrusts"?

[nyiregyhazi]

Then, who are some of the pianists that have a truly colourful fortissimo, rather than just a lump of "boom"? Also, unless you need to do some voicing control (sounding the melody note in a chord being one of them), isn't it a good idea to make sure that no notes "stick out of the texture" too much relative to the others?
Also, can you provide some examples where Kissin, Barenboim, heck, any of the "high-elbow" pianists butchering voicing with the "arm thrusts"?

Virtually any film of either on youtube. Notably, try kissin's hideous scriabin op 8 no 12 though. I've seen a picture of Richter sitting really rather high and sometimes Volodos (who seems relatively unconcerned by height, but prefers whatever chair is available).

I'm afraid I can't make any sense of what you are saying about the supposed benefit of uniformity in a chord. Voicing is what gives the likes of Cherkassky and Rachmaninoff their sound quality. You can't do that by thrusting with a braced hand (which is what most high stool players tend to do). Perhaps you're referring to chords that randomly feature some notes barely sounding at all? That can sound terrible, but doesn't change quite how much tonal differentiation great artists make even in loud chords. It can be truly extreme.

[wnlqxod]

I'm afraid I can't make any sense of what you are saying about the supposed benefit of uniformity in a chord.

Like, accompaniment chords. You know, what the left hand is most often doing in Waltzes, Polonaises, etc.  I am not saying that voicing is unimportant; don't get me wrong on that.

Then, who are some of the pianists that have a truly colourful fortissimo, rather than just a lump of "boom"?

I think you forgot about this part- who are such pianists?

[nyiregyhazi]

Like, accompaniment chords. You know, what the left hand is most often doing in Waltzes, Polonaises, etc.  I am not saying that voicing is unimportant; don't get me wrong on that.

I think you forgot about this part- who are such pianists?

I mentioned Volodos and Richter. Gieseking also looks high on photos. Of course, there are places where you need something more uniform, but individuation of fingers works better for that too. Pressing the arm through stiff fingers reduces scope for choice (and this is usually what happens when pianists who sit high play loud).

[celegorma]

I sit high enough for my eyes to level with the score or even above it so when I look at the score my peripheral will be able to see the keyboard Otherwise, it doesn't matter.

[chopin2015]

I think it's best to sit lower, start with keys and elbow at same height. That's pretty low. The advantage of sitting lower is that you can still sit up high(arch your back and straighten neck), and it seems like a versatile position. If you sit high and need to look down, you will have to scrunch your back and shoulders, which limits quality of your physical state. I think it is better to be close to the keys(distance between eyes and hands) because that is how most people play usually. Its easier to look away, because your body is not as separated from your hands(when youre sitting high, you basically are looking away, already). I bet sitting high would create a really controlled sound, and not much range in dynamics because you are taking your body out of the equation.
My analysis here may be opposite of the truth because it is just a theory based on experience. I dont recommend sitting low. If you sit too low, or too high, it somehow will affect your playing.
Sit as high as you practice is good advice. I sit lower because sitting high hurts my back. It's good to practice playing from sitting high, though. Changes how you usually play, and probably other stuff.

[awesom_o]

When I was beginning piano lessons as a young child,  I was instructed to play with elbows slightly above the keyboard, arms parallel to the floor.

A decade later, as a teenaged pianist, I began studying under a different teacher, who sat with his elbows below the keyboard. He changed the way I played completely, from a technical perspective. I became increasingly exposed to the recordings and videos of Horowitz and Gould. Favouring their respective tonal palettes over those of most contemporary pianists, who I noticed generally sat much higher at the keyboard, I began experimenting with a lower seating position.

Throughout my undergraduate degree in piano performance, I sat low-the very lowest setting on a standard professional artist bench.

Since then, I began sitting even lower. I began cutting the legs shorter on my benches, eventually settling at the height of 14 inches- the same as Gould, I believe. I used this bench to record the op. 10 and 25 Etudes by Chopin-my first real recording project (rather than live performance on video) and I am quite satisfied with the results so far, tonally speaking. I've posted about 1/3 of them so far-they are in the audition room if you fancy a listen.

I must say though, although I favour this sittting position for Chopin, Baroque, and certain other periods, I feel more comfortable at 15.5-16 inches when working on my newest project, the Symphonies of Beethoven arranged for solo piano by F. Liszt.

Of today's pianists I prefer mostly the ones who are sitting a bit lower, with the exception of Sokolov and a few others. I find many pianists who sit high have a rather limited range of F and FF, and are more prone to having notes not 'speak' at the pp levels.

[birba]

I must say though, although I favour this sittting position for Chopin, Baroque, and certain other periods, I feel more comfortable at 15.5-16 inches when working on my newest project, the Symphonies of Beethoven arranged for solo piano by F. Liszt.

what a project!  I only heard the fifth played by leslie howard in an agosti masterclass.  It was very impressive.  How do you go about attacking such a project!?  How long is it going to take!?

[birba]

This thread reminds me of an experience at the geneva competition years ago.  In the semi-finals a very fine japanese pianist who played prokofiev's 6th, had a bench brought out she had specially made for her.  She sat so low, she had the legs shortened about 3 inches!

[awesom_o]

Stanislav Ioudenich, who tied 1st in Van Cliburn with Olga Kern, also brought an expecially low bench. Bozhanov recently at the Chopin, QEC, and VC also sat on a special stool.

The 9 symphonies is a huge project. Only 2 pianists have recorded complete cycles as far as I know-Biret and Katsaris. I've been playing piano for 20 years, so I'm no stranger to playing larger works.

The main trick with the symphonies is to know them as thoroughly as possible before beginning any work at the piano itself. It's much easier to do that with this music than with most 'piano' music at the advanced level.

It's going to take a while-right now I'm working on 5,6, and 8 all at once. For the 9th, I plan to avoid the solo arrangement and instead play Carl Czerny's 2 piano arrangement. My girlfriend, who is also a pianist (more of a Beethoven specialist than me) and I are going to record the 32 and the 9 together as a combined project-the first of its kind. I'm doing about 12 of the sonatas, and 7-8 of the symphonies. She's doing the first symphony and maybe the second. I'll probably do Eroica and no. 4. I'd like to do no. 7 as arranged for piano trio-there is a wonderful version. My older brother and his girlfriend are professional violinist/cellist, so that would be great!

It should shape up over the next few years, this project.
Obviously we've both been working on the sonatas our whole lives, but we just got the symphonies a few months ago....

[birba]

Stanislav Ioudenich, who tied 1st in Van Cliburn with Olga Kern, also brought an expecially low bench. Bozhanov recently at the Chopin, QEC, and VC also sat on a special stool.

The 9 symphonies is a huge project. Only 2 pianists have recorded complete cycles as far as I know-Biret and Katsaris. I've been playing piano for 20 years, so I'm no stranger to playing larger works.

The main trick with the symphonies is to know them as thoroughly as possible before beginning any work at the piano itself. It's much easier to do that with this music than with most 'piano' music at the advanced level.

It's going to take a while-right now I'm working on 5,6, and 8 all at once. For the 9th, I plan to avoid the solo arrangement and instead play Carl Czerny's 2 piano arrangement. My girlfriend, who is also a pianist (more of a Beethoven specialist than me) and I are going to record the 32 and the 9 together as a combined project-the first of its kind. I'm doing about 12 of the sonatas, and 7-8 of the symphonies. She's doing the first symphony and maybe the second. I'll probably do Eroica and no. 4. I'd like to do no. 7 as arranged for piano trio-there is a wonderful version. My older brother and his girlfriend are professional violinist/cellist, so that would be great!

It should shape up over the next few years, this project.
Obviously we've both been working on the sonatas our whole lives, but we just got the symphonies a few months ago....

Just like your name: AWESOME!

[awesom_o]

Did you listen to the Etudes?

[nyiregyhazi]

Stanislav Ioudenich, who tied 1st in Van Cliburn with Olga Kern, also brought an expecially low bench. Bozhanov recently at the Chopin, QEC, and VC also sat on a special stool.

The 9 symphonies is a huge project. Only 2 pianists have recorded complete cycles as far as I know-Biret and Katsaris. I've been playing piano for 20 years, so I'm no stranger to playing larger works.

The main trick with the symphonies is to know them as thoroughly as possible before beginning any work at the piano itself. It's much easier to do that with this music than with most 'piano' music at the advanced level.

It's going to take a while-right now I'm working on 5,6, and 8 all at once. For the 9th, I plan to avoid the solo arrangement and instead play Carl Czerny's 2 piano arrangement. My girlfriend, who is also a pianist (more of a Beethoven specialist than me) and I are going to record the 32 and the 9 together as a combined project-the first of its kind. I'm doing about 12 of the sonatas, and 7-8 of the symphonies. She's doing the first symphony and maybe the second. I'll probably do Eroica and no. 4. I'd like to do no. 7 as arranged for piano trio-there is a wonderful version. My older brother and his girlfriend are professional violinist/cellist, so that would be great!

It should shape up over the next few years, this project.
Obviously we've both been working on the sonatas our whole lives, but we just got the symphonies a few months ago....

Don't forget Leslie Howard. Also, did scherbakov do them all on naxos, or merely some?

[birba]

Only the black-key.  The nonchalance with which you played it as all  those people  wandered around, (some of them  not even listening to you!) was admirable.

[awesom_o]

Oh. That wasn't one of the recordings-that was meant just to be the teaser-trailer
The recordings are actual recordings. That video was kind of spurr-of-the-moment and my focus was not optimal. Also, I didn't have my low bench. I only had a regular one on the lowest setting. All of the recordings were done on the 14 inch bench.