Scales in Actual Use

[timothy42b]

I'm learning my scales dutifully.  I have Bernhard's approach printed and sitting by the keyboard.  I'm still on HS, 12 scales, correct fingering patterns. 

I have to admit the usefulness of learning scales on piano is not real clear to me.  Granted that I've only been taking lessons a couple of months, still I've not come across anything in the music that matches scale fingering patterns.  I don't know any piece outside of Joy to the World that has a single octave scale, and none that have two. 

I've played trombone since 1962, and scales have direct application.  There are choices of fingering that are key specific, and learning patterns for each key greatly improves technical speed and sightreading ability.  It is not yet apparent that the same is true for piano. 

[fuel925]

scales are vital for learning the basic fundamentals of music and how it's constructed.

[bernhard]

Fuel 925 is right. 

For a bit more detail, 

see reply #22 & #24here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3334.msg30756.html#msg30756

Reply #3 here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548

Replies #3, #20, # 28 & # 30 here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3875.msg35175.html#msg35175

Reply #3 here:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889

Reply #9 here:
https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Spatula]

When I was a small boy and Michael Jackson was my neighbour...

I first learned C major and didn't know the black keys were keys.  I thought they were evil little minnions and spies sent out by MJ to spy on me while practicing.

What a sad sad little man. 

[mosis]

I'm learning my scales dutifully.  I have Bernhard's approach printed and sitting by the keyboard.  I'm still on HS, 12 scales, correct fingering patterns. 

I have to admit the usefulness of learning scales on piano is not real clear to me.  Granted that I've only been taking lessons a couple of months, still I've not come across anything in the music that matches scale fingering patterns.  I don't know any piece outside of Joy to the World that has a single octave scale, and none that have two. 

I've played trombone since 1962, and scales have direct application.  There are choices of fingering that are key specific, and learning patterns for each key greatly improves technical speed and sightreading ability.  It is not yet apparent that the same is true for piano. 

Where did you find Bernhard's scale approach?

[timothy42b]

Where did you find Bernhard's scale approach?

See forum Performance, thread entitled Scales (again), which contains a list of links I found very useful.  (Thank you, Mr. B) 

Yes, as pointed out, the scale is one of the fundamental concepts of music.  After 40 years playing brass instruments this is beginning to sink in.  Applied to piano though the utility is not yet apparent.  Perhaps it will come.

Or perhaps, as with Hanon and other technical exercises, there is controversy whether the utility exists at all. 

[timothy42b]

Okay.  I now can see I asked too broad a question.

Yes, no disagreement, your arguments for scale practice are convincing. 

Scale fingerings, on the other hand, I'm still thinking about.  <grin> 

[BoliverAllmon]

here is something interesting about fingering of scales. if you are doing HT then the standard fingering is good. I found out though that for HS or scales that are in certain pieces. Other fingering may be helpful. I for one have altered the fingering of the F min. scale passage in the Beethoven sonata op2/1 first mvt. It just seemed more natural for the occassion.

boliver

[minimozart007]

Just for the record, Mozart IS SCALES!!!!!

[djbrak]

Just for the record, Mozart IS SCALES!!!!!

LOL!!!

[dmk]

There are lots of pieces which use scales: a couple of examples.

3rd movement of Schubert's Sonata in A Major D 664, 2 octave E major run in the exposition and (surprise, surprise) a corresponding 2 octave A major run in the development.  (This movement is a real pest!!!).  I also use the Development of this piece to demonstrate to my students why they should learn their arpeggios, it is so much easier to memorise and learn if you know them.

Schubert impromptu in F minor op 142 n4.  Nearly a whole page worth of Ab major runs in here.

For why you should learn broken chords see Beethoven sonata op 27 n1 Allegro section of the first movement.

good luck and best wishes!!

dmk

[timothy42b]

Wow, an old thread revived a bit.  I'm properly chastened of course. 

Here is where I was coming from.  As a beginner it seems strange to practice one fingering pattern on scales, but then notice that in the beginner pieces you are doing, you will never use the same fingering patterns.  Of course you aren't doing full scales in most pieces, but certainly shorter segments of scales make up a good bit of music.  So what really drives this question is probably the beginner ignorance of the "why" to fingering choices, not the ignorance of scales.  Example at the end. 

A few people have pointed out the general importance of scales.  I agree.

A few have pointed out some specific examples of actual scale fingerings in the music.  Okay, good information.  Certainly the exception, at my level, but it's good to know they exist. 

I understand more today than I did two months ago when I first posted.  My confusion will probably continue to decrease as my understanding of fingering choices improves.  At this stage I have no set of rules to apply when fingerings aren't written in the music.  For example, last night I was looking at the Scarlatti K.32, writing fingerings lightly in pencil (later I'll ask someone how close I came.)  It's in D min, I could default to right hand fingerings for F maj.  I doubt if there's a single measure where that would make sense though. 

[rafant]

In some sense almost every melody could be reduced to a few building blocks such as scales and arpeggios or part of them. Indeed one could see scales in almost every piece. So, examples could be infinite, but as conspicuous ones I could quote many Scarlatti sonates and Chopin's and Field's Nocturnes, ceartainly plenty of scales.

[anda]

Just for the record, Mozart IS SCALES!!!!!

you mean "mozart uses scales", right? i thought so

[timothy42b]

In some sense almost every melody could be reduced to a few building blocks such as scales and arpeggios or part of them. Indeed one could see scales in almost every piece. So, examples could be infinite, but as conspicuous ones I could quote many Scarlatti sonates and Chopin's and Field's Nocturnes, ceartainly plenty of scales.

Absolutely. 

You could quote numerous places where scales or pieces of scales are used in music.  Except for very modern stuff, almost all music would fit.

However, you would find it much more difficult to quote music where the identical fingering is used as is done in your scale practice.  1231234, yes.  but are you really going to play 312 in an isolated spot, or move the hand and play 123?  Depends on what came before and what came after. 

That's all I was saying.  Scale fingerings seem to be the exception not the rule. 

[rafant]

I think is better to feel ourselves comfortable with the idea that the fingering for scales imbued in a piece, or scale-like musical phrases, may have a solution different to the standard fingering of the scale exercises, since as, you say, it depends of what is before and after. But frequently the solution matches such a standard fingering, and then a mastering of the respective scale is very useful.
To quote a close example, when I started to learn the Chopin's Prelude Op 28 #15, where there are ornamental brief scales, I messed a little with the fingering at the beginning, but when I realized that I was dealing with segments of the chromatic scale, I fixed them quickly using its standard fingering.

[chopinguy]

Practicing scales shouldn't just be for application in music (playing scales that are actually in the score), but they can also be used to practice technique.  I find that playing scales is a good mental tune-up for organizing my fingers, such as which fingers are opened up for black keys and which are closed for white keys.

I do agree with everything else that's been said, though.

[minimozart007]

Yes, Anda, that's what I meant 

[chopinguy]

Hmm, it could also be Mozart music is scales. 

[Rach3]

Exactly! The Mozart Requiem, for example, is a G major scale; four octaves, both hands.

Scales are almost exclusively a technique thing; imho they have very little musical interest by themselves (some Mozart excepted). When I see a scale or pseudo-scale in a piece, I would practice it in that context and that's that.

[chopinguy]

Have any of you heard/played the Hadyn Cello Concerto in C major?  The 3rd movement is almost exclusively scales, very musical ones at that! (our school orchestra played it last term)

Even though it's not piano, it's the best piece i can think of that is almsot all scales!  Although there's also the edition with cello and piano "orchestra" accompaniment.

[anda]

Hmm, it could also be Mozart music is scales. 

or rather, Mozart music includes scales.