!?!?!Technique !?!?!?!

[j3r3my777]

Ive been playing piano for a while, and about a month ago i played on my schools new Kawai piano and was in shock on how bad my playing sounded. I was not use to heavy keys were. My Schroeder at home was light keys so i thought it was my technique. Now i am practicing on the school piano and using Dohnanyi Essential Finger Exercises and have made a schedule on practicing all my scale and their arpeggios and cadences in all of their inversions and keys and practicing them Dim ,aug, adding the 6th ect.... you know how it goes. I did actually strengthen my fingers, but I've read that Hannon and Cortot's exercises are not so good. So if they are not good what do i do? What book or methods do i use? I have been studying Mastering Piano Technique by Fink and all i have is the book, so its kinda intense and very very confusing. So i was going to buy the cd, but I'm not sure of its worth it.
-Please help
-Also im working on Debussy's Dr. Gradus ad Parnassum (which is easy for me)... but
bringing out that melody on the Kawai is killing me and i need to master this piece fast, so if there are any suggestions i would greatly appreciate it.
-Thanks

[kujiraya]

Why would you want to play on a piano with heavy keys??? Only 4th-rate pianists would actually PREFER heavier keys, because the heavy keys force you to use more strength, thereby masking any uneven-ness when you are supposed to be playing lightly. Light keys helps you to conserve strength and stamina, and allows you better control over how you want to play the notes.

[kujiraya]

And be very, very, careful to not misguidedly injure yourself by forcing tension because you are deliberately working with the Dohnanyi exercises on a heavy keyboard.

[j3r3my777]

Why would you want to play on a piano with heavy keys??? Only 4th-rate pianists would actually PREFER heavier keys, because the heavy keys force you to use more strength, thereby masking any uneven-ness when you are supposed to be playing lightly. Light keys helps you to conserve strength and stamina, and allows you better control over how you want to play the notes.

The reason is because i am now performing on that piano for upcoming events

[kujiraya]

This is a terrible state of affairs! Can you show this thread to the Head of your school's Musical Department and maybe they can get a technician to come and make the keys lighter?

[nyiregyhazi]

Why would you want to play on a piano with heavy keys??? Only 4th-rate pianists would actually PREFER heavier keys, because the heavy keys force you to use more strength, thereby masking any uneven-ness when you are supposed to be playing lightly. Light keys helps you to conserve strength and stamina, and allows you better control over how you want to play the notes.

Its not about wanting to. You don't get a choice if you turn up for a concert and the action is heavy. That's also a very superficial summary. Heavy keys aren't that much heavier anyway. It's a matter of whether you transfer energy efficiently. If not, hiding behind light actions won't help develop true technique. Pianists who can play advanced repertoire on a heavy action aren't just using brute force. Equally, evenness is about the voicing and range of the piano- not action strength. Heavy actions are no more likely to disguise sloppy unevenness than light ones.

[pts1]

When faced with a "real" piano, it will inevitably reveal inadequate technique and other weaknesses.

With easy playing uprights or your easy piano at home, you can get away with all sorts of "magic"
which really don't help ... e.g. rolling the hand to left or right instead of playing the keys with thumb, 4th, 5th finger.... wrist dipping, and any host of inefficient movements.

In order to build endurance and strength, you must increase the range of motion so you are playing with the correct muscles, positions, movements, etc., and build up slowly over time.

You do this with moderately slow practice in which each key is played evenly. Fingers raised a bit in their natural positions aid this.

What you practice doesn't really matter.... Hanon is fine and actually a good idea since you are using both hands equally.

Its HOW you practice it.

Scales, trills, arpeggios are absolutely essential, IMO, to learn and practice.

Though it doesn't feel like it... this school piano has done you a favor... now you know what you're faced with and can work up to the challenge.

[kujiraya]

The information above on how light keys can also cover up poor technique is very interesting.

To the OP: Do you have a piano teacher who can tell you if you are playing with an improper technique? If so, it is slightly worrying that your piano teacher has never noticed this before. Have other (maybe more experienced) pianists played this piano and confirmed that it is adequate? Many people think that Kawai pianos have a heavy action.

We've all had experiences with crap pianos. The rehearsal room for the choral group at my church has an old, worn-out piano whose pedals don't even work.

Back in my high school days, my school once asked me and my friend to go to a community function to play the piano. We got a completely inadequate piano which had a hard time projecting any sound at all. My friend's performance was devastatingly bad. Somehow, I got a little bit more out of this nasty surprise of a piano. We both complained to each other afterwards about how crap the piano was, and I remember thinking that my friend should have stopped and declined to play after his first few bars.

So, if you are faced with a nasty surprise of a poor sub-standard piano at a performance, you can make the best out of it, or decline to play. However, your situation will not be a surprise; presumably you still have days or weeks before you have to perform on this piano, so if there are problems with the piano, there is time to do something about it.

[terexyun]

Its not about wanting to. You don't get a choice if you turn up for a concert and the action is heavy. That's also a very superficial summary. Heavy keys aren't that much heavier anyway. It's a matter of whether you transfer energy efficiently. If not, hiding behind light actions won't help develop true technique. Pianists who can play advanced repertoire on a heavy action aren't just using brute force. Equally, evenness is about the voicing and range of the piano- not action strength. Heavy actions are no more likely to disguise sloppy unevenness than light ones.

Agree with the above, maybe if you experiment with the piano a little you'll find its easier to play it if you change your technique to accommodate the specific piano, and how it responds to you. Any way good luck with that! remember don't try to force your way through..

[slobone]

The information above on how light keys can also cover up poor technique is very interesting.

To the OP: Do you have a piano teacher who can tell you if you are playing with an improper technique? If so, it is slightly worrying that your piano teacher has never noticed this before. Have other (maybe more experienced) pianists played this piano and confirmed that it is adequate? Many people think that Kawai pianos have a heavy action.

We've all had experiences with crap pianos. The rehearsal room for the choral group at my church has an old, worn-out piano whose pedals don't even work.

Back in my high school days, my school once asked me and my friend to go to a community function to play the piano. We got a completely inadequate piano which had a hard time projecting any sound at all. My friend's performance was devastatingly bad. Somehow, I got a little bit more out of this nasty surprise of a piano. We both complained to each other afterwards about how crap the piano was, and I remember thinking that my friend should have stopped and declined to play after his first few bars.

So, if you are faced with a nasty surprise of a poor sub-standard piano at a performance, you can make the best out of it, or decline to play. However, your situation will not be a surprise; presumably you still have days or weeks before you have to perform on this piano, so if there are problems with the piano, there is time to do something about it.

This sure sounds like you're saying -- blame the piano. That's not going to work. Unlike other instrumentalists, pianists can't always choose their own instrument. You have to learn to deal with what's in front of you.

I remember one time I was scheduled to play in a recital on a piano I'd never played before. My teacher and I showed up an hour early to try it out. I said something like, this is a terrible piano, I can't play loud enough. Whereupon my teacher sat down and rattled off Rach's C# minor prelude, including the triple or is it quadruple f's. That shut me up.

[kujiraya]

This sure sounds like you're saying -- blame the piano. That's not going to work. Unlike other instrumentalists, pianists can't always choose their own instrument. You have to learn to deal with what's in front of you.

I remember one time I was scheduled to play in a recital on a piano I'd never played before. My teacher and I showed up an hour early to try it out. I said something like, this is a terrible piano, I can't play loud enough. Whereupon my teacher sat down and rattled off Rach's C# minor prelude, including the triple or is it quadruple f's. That shut me up.

Maybe you missed the part where I asked the OP whether other, more experienced, pianists have played this piano and whether they can confirm that it is adequate.

It sounds like the OP has already had many hours to try and adjust his piano-playing to this piano, with marginal improvement at best, and he still cannot bring out the melodic line of the Debussy piece he wants to play for his performance, even though he is trying to the stage where he says that is killing him.

I certainly hope that pianists are allowed to have a choice on whether to play a bad piano or not. I play an old, worn-out piano in the rehearsal room the choral group uses, at my church, because there are better ways for my church to spend our money than on purchasing a new piano. But, if I was asked to perform a concert recital on this old, worn out piano, I would most likely decline. There are plenty of other examples of bad pianos out there in the world which sound terrible when played. What if there ISN'T a problem with the OP's technique?

As I see it, there are 2 main issues regarding the OP's situation which need to be clarified:

1) Is there a problem with the OP's technique? If the OP has a teacher, his teacher should be helping him identify and correct this. I still find it rather strange that the OP was happy with how his playing sounded on his own piano at home, and if he has a piano teacher, that the piano teacher presumably was happy with how he was progressing on the teacher's piano during the OP's lessons, but suddenly, the OP is very unhappy with how his piano-playing sounds while he plays on his school's new piano. In my experience, really good pianos actually HELP me sound better, even though my technique is far from perfect.

2) Is there a problem with the piano? Some other more experienced pianist may be able to give an opinion regarding this. If there is a problem with the piano, then there is time to fix it, as it seems like the OP's performance is not something which has to happen in the next 5 minutes, the next hour, or even the next week. Much more importantly, if there IS a problem with this piano, then the OP should NOT be putting in so much effort to adjust his technique in an attempt to make this piano sound good, otherwise he could cause injuries to himself!

[chopin2015]

On heavy action, you dont have to use "brute force" to make everything sound. But when practicing, it takes a little longer to play evenly with your weak fingers. This could completely screw with the melody and in turn affect your perception of melody. But it wont make you a 4th rate pianist. In fact, im offended. Noone prefers a heavy action but you should know how to warm up on one and dont take it for granted. Light action is best for performance so you dont hurt yourself when you are playing agressively. But it takes no shock from your hands where the heavy action supports alot of weight and offers the best resistance and can help you during practice. Ive played on a kawai with heavy action and it was very percussive sounding. Also, heavy action you have to start slow and figure out how to go fast by working on the motion of your arm. Ps avoid holding your wrists at an angle, it constrics motion of the fingers.

[pts1]

Make no mistake, people!

Pianists are athletes!

Smaller muscle athletes, but athletes nevertheless.

It is muscle training, and all the rules that apply to the larger muscles apply to the small ones.
Muscle tissue is muscle tissue.

Being able to play the Chopin Etudes as an example, is not because those players have "super talent" beyond "regular" pianists.... its because they train well enough and long enough at the piano to be able to do it.

In a regular practice session of say 3 or 4 hours, a pianist is doing literally thousands and thousands of repetitions with fingers, hands, arms.... and this takes the building of strength, coordination and endurance.

This will not happen over night.

Training movements should be exaggerated, using good range of motion and a bit more power than you'll need for performance. This in addition to many repetitions will get you there.

The OP said he practiced at home on his weak piano and was shocked when confronted with the grand at school.

What's the surprise?

This is a little like saying your exercise program is to walk around the block once per day, and then you were shocked when you fell apart trying to run a 10K!

Being able to train/practice on a heavier action will put you in good shape for avoiding nasty surprises when encountering different pianos.

[chopin2015]

The fact that our hand muscles are much much smaller...it is even more dangerous to damage them in any way. You must practice on heavier action, take a really long time and very carefully. Go tigers

[ppianista]

Why would you want to play on a piano with heavy keys??? Only 4th-rate pianists would actually PREFER heavier keys, because the heavy keys force you to use more strength, thereby masking any uneven-ness when you are supposed to be playing lightly. Light keys helps you to conserve strength and stamina, and allows you better control over how you want to play the notes.

So Arthur Rubinstein was a 4th-rate pianist. That's interesting news! (In fact he preferred heavy-action keys that weren't cleaned before the concert, so that they felt sticky.)

As for myself, I prefer heavy action, too. But here it's safe to say that I'm only 4th-rate (compared to Rubinstein, that is). And happy with it.
 

[nyiregyhazi]

Make no mistake, people!

Pianists are athletes!

Smaller muscle athletes, but athletes nevertheless.

It is muscle training, and all the rules that apply to the larger muscles apply to the small ones.
Muscle tissue is muscle tissue.

Being able to play the Chopin Etudes as an example, is not because those players have "super talent" beyond "regular" pianists.... its because they train well enough and long enough at the piano to be able to do it.

The last paragraph is a little doubtful. Some  people are playing very fast and effortlessly at very young ages. While there is an element of training muscles, it's much more about knowing the right quality. Someone who takes the attitude that they need to spend long enough developing muscles is much more likely to get it wrong and screw themself up. While there's definitely an element of physical development, it tends to happen itself if you use the right quality (and trying to force it tends to directly hinder progress).

[slobone]

It seems to me muscular development should be a byproduct of developing correct technique. Which in turn should ideally not be separated from playing with phrasing and expression, but that's not always realistic, especially with beginning and intermediate players. But in any event it's counterproductive to focus on the muscles alone.

In my own practicing I do a certain amount of purely technical exercises, especially if I've been away from the piano for a few days. But maybe 20 minutes of Hanon (fortissimo -- my poor neighbors!) and another 20 of scales is usually enough to get my forearms feeling toned and ready to go. The Hanon I do in triplets and in different keys, to keep me on my toes.

[chopin2015]

I start with slow, gentle reading.

[slobone]

I start with slow, gentle reading.

Yes. Definitely the best way to find your way around a new piece.

[nyiregyhazi]

Yes. Definitely the best way to find your way around a new piece.

It depends. If gentle means being even a little tentative or repressed about how you move, being gentle is a bad way to go. Confidence of motion is imperative, for it to be useful. For many, striving to be gentle causes them to lose every trace of confidence and intent from the quality of movement. While being downright aggressive is a bad idea, the wrong kind of being gentle is infinitely worse than the good kind of confident intent. I see this very often in students. Thinking things through enough to proceed with certainty and deliberate quality of action is better than hiding behind being gentle due to self doubt and lack of certainty. Hoping that anything goes if you're simply gentle is a prevalent problem- that leaves some students caught up in a very negative approach that is very hard to break, after that initial half-hearted attempt.

[chopin2015]

It depends. If gentle means being even a little tentative or repressed about how you move, being gentle is a bad way to go. Confidence of motion is imperative, for it to be useful. For many, striving to be gentle causes them to lose every trace of confidence and intent from the quality of movement. While being downright aggressive is a bad idea, the wrong kind of being gentle is infinitely worse than the good kind of confident intent. I see this very often in students. Thinking things through enough to proceed with certainty and deliberate quality of action is better than hiding behind being gentle due to self doubt and lack of certainty.

Gentle on my own body, not in a way i perform music. I like to start practice with reading because it prepares your mind and your body follows. This works very well for me. But i do agree that confidence in motion is very important for playing. It should be integrated into every day practice when playing through any passage. As well as attitude in general. One should play with focus not only on technique but in state of mind. Thats how you focus energy efficiently.

[slobone]

I assumed they meant gentle on the brain. Don't stress out in other words. Just take your time and read the music carefully.

[nyiregyhazi]

I assumed they meant gentle on the brain. Don't stress out in other words. Just take your time and read the music carefully.

Definitely agreed- but it's essential that this translates into playing with strong intent, rather than into sounding each key gently and carefully, without confidence in yourself. Many people limit themselves like crazy with the wrong kind of gentle.

[outin]

About light or heavy action on pianos:
I think it depends also on how your hands are built. My mother visited me the other day. She has never played the piano but wanted to try. We are exactly the same height and have about the same lenght of fingers, but her hand looks almost twice as wide and her fingers are about twice as thick as mine. She seemed to have no trouble playing the keys of my piano with no training while I have struggled a lot with the stiffness of the piano. Shorter (in relation to your hand size) fingers seems to make playing the keys easier, although thin fingers may give you a benefit on playing between the black keys. Of course mine are also double jointed which adds to the challenge. When I get to play on a light action piano I feel a different kind of freedom in my playing that I never have on my own...

[chopin2015]

About light or heavy action on pianos:
I think it depends also on how your hands are built. My mother visited me the other day. She has never played the piano but wanted to try. We are exactly the same height and have about the same lenght of fingers, but her hand looks almost twice as wide and her fingers are about twice as thick as mine. She seemed to have no trouble playing the keys of my piano with no training while I have struggled a lot with the stiffness of the piano. Shorter (in relation to your hand size) fingers seems to make playing the keys easier, although thin fingers may give you a benefit on playing between the black keys. Of course mine are also double jointed which adds to the challenge. When I get to play on a light action piano I feel a different kind of freedom in my playing that I never have on my own...

Shes also older and can prob use much more force than you. I bet when you reach 50s you are likely to be stronger than a 30 year old. Im not saying your mom is 50...im just trying to say older women can be very strong, my grandma is under 65 and she is extremely strong. Maybe because of the life she lived, you know, the soviet life? Idk. Older healthy women are stronger than younger adult females for a while, in think that can be the case if you have not been studying your whole life.

[outin]

Shes also older and can prob use much more force than you. I bet when you reach 50s you are likely to be stronger than a 30 year old. Im not saying your mom is 50...im just trying to say older women can be very strong, my grandma is under 65 and she is extremely strong. Maybe because of the life she lived, you know, the soviet life? Idk. Older healthy women are stronger than younger adult females for a while, in think that can be the case if you have not been studying your whole life.

I'm about 4 years from being 50 

My mother is pretty strong for her age, but I also have done my share of physical labout in my younger years. I just assume we have developed different muscle groups for the tasks due to being differently built.

I just think it takes more technique to learn to create the required force if you don't have naturally strong built firm fingers and a large hand...

[chopin2015]

I'm about 4 years from being 50 

My mother is pretty strong for her age, but I also have done my share of physical labout in my younger years. I just assume we have developed different muscle groups for the tasks due to being differently built.

I just think it takes more technique to learn to create the required force if you don't have naturally strong built firm fingers and a large hand...

True she could have been using all upper body strength, while you begin with curved fingers, and that is difficult on heavy action?

[outin]

True she could have been using all upper body strength, while you begin with curved fingers, and that is difficult on heavy action?

In fact she just played immediate with her fingers in a way that took me a year to learn to do at home, I used to need arm pressure to play 
Maybe she is just naturally gifted...but unfortunately she is completely tone deaf 

[chopin2015]

Some people see other people play correctly and understand what they should do physically to mimic them...like relative or perfect pitch. So yeah, gifted ,she could be. You could spend more time watching pros! See how it affects your technique, sometimes you form conections in your thoughts you arent aware of until you decide to do something, fully.

[outin]

Some people see other people play correctly and understand what they should do physically to mimic them...

I've watched a lot of pros, but you cannot really mimic someone who is very differently built and has a completely different level of skill already. Even my teacher couldn't "teach" me the correct way to play, because I cannot relate to someone showing or explaining me what to do. It took a lot of experimenting (and some reading) to find a way to get to better sound and even after finding the right way it took a long time to get it properly into my system, because it required movements and postitions that felt unnatural for me.

If my anatomy knowledge is not completely wrong there are no muscles in the fingers themselves. But some people seem to have naturally firm finger joints while others are like mine, giving away in every possible direction. Instead of firm I used to be able to make them only stiff. I don't see how one could make the fingers firmer by any other way that to learn to use the muscles in the palm and arm in appropriate way. And that can be complicated, especially when not having much natural span and all the reach has to be from the fingers as well. Add a stiff action to that and it is even more difficult.

[chopin2015]

I see. You might develop a firmer position if your fingers become more trained to work independently. My teacher in russia called the 3rd and 4th finger the siamese twins. Lol but yeah i see...just free your body. The arm is  very heavy if you let go, once your elbow is free, full weight on your finger tips, try lifting 1 finger at a time while holding the rest down on the keyboard, pressing a key. If you want i can post some excersizes tomorrow! The ones that chopin taught.

[outin]

I see. You might develop a firmer position if your fingers become more trained to work independently. My teacher in russia called the 3rd and 4th finger the siamese twins. Lol but yeah i see...just free your body. The arm is  very heavy if you let go, once your elbow is free, full weight on your finger tips, try lifting 1 finger at a time while holding the rest down on the keyboard, pressing a key. If you want i can post some excersizes tomorrow! The ones that chopin taught.

I am not saying it's much of a problem for me now, it just took a very long time to get there...To be honest I didn't do very well the last time I tried to play on the lighter grand my teacher has. So I guess I have finally adjusted

[lostinidlewonder]

Trying to discuss technique in words is quite a futile path to take. It is just like trying to teach someone how to paint a picture in words. Words are useful but certainly cannot be used in isolation to describe every single situation, learning physical actions certainly is one example where it fails on its own.

[maczip]

@outin:
I am following this thread and others dealing with technique issues.
I started working on Inventio no 13 last week. I find the piece quite difficult in respect of fingerings. What fingerings do you use for bars 5-8 LH? I tried different fingerings, but notthing feels comfortable for me.
Thanky you

[outin]

@outin:
I am following this thread and others dealing with technique issues.
I started working on Inventio no 13 last week. I find the piece quite difficult in respect of fingerings. What fingerings do you use for bars 5-8 LH? I tried different fingerings, but notthing feels comfortable for me.
Thanky you

M5: 53 2141 42 2141
(this is a strange one, since it would be more logical to use
53 2141 53 2141, but somehow it just didn't work with me when speeding up)
M6: 45 5121 5212 1521
M7: 2345 2521 2521
M8: 24 121 4142

I am actually terrible with mixing numbers, so if something seems insane, I probably just wrote it wrong 

[maczip]

thank you!
this is interesting fingering, I will try.

may I also ask for fingerings M 3 and 4 (which I forgot to mention)

[outin]

thank you!
this is interesting fingering, I will try.

may I also ask for fingerings M 3 and 4 (which I forgot to mention)

M3: 2424 1241 3254
M4: 5311 241 3254

[maczip]

this helped me a lot.
Thx again

[outin]

this helped me a lot.
Thx again

I still have to figure out the rest myself, I am not sure I have found a good solution yet...

[alanteew]

My home piano is a wonderful Kawai KG2, which I appreciate more every day. But it has a relatively heavy action.

I've found again and again when I play/perform elsewhere, typically on a piano with significantly lighter action, I sound better. I feel that practicing on my heavier home piano has helped forced me to develop better technique.