Octave Tremolo?

[brendan765]

My left hand gets tense when I get to the end of the octave passages in beethovens Sonata Pathetique movement 1...I can play it fine but I want to know how to get rid of the tension...it seems like when I completely relax my wrists and play through fast passages, extended tremolos or trills it is hard to keep mr wrists from locking up...this occurs especially within a piece that has repeated left hand tremolos or fast passages like right hand in fantasie imporomptu or a min op 25 no 11 etude- Chopin. This is my major technique issue I must overcome.

Please lead me to some good youtube vids on this!

[p2u_]

Octave Tremolo?
[...]
Please lead me to some good youtube vids on this!

This topic has been beaten to death already. You could have done a Google search like:

piano: tremolo Beethoven's Pathetique + video only

I've also read somewhere here that you get such problems when you practise pieces you are not ready for, such as Liszt Wilde Jagd Transcendental Etude. Can't tell for sure, though...

Paul

[pts1]

Brendan

You must learn to do this slowly, say half or one third tempo, and learn the FEELING of doing it.

The upper arm must also feel very relaxed and free and move.

Its a balance of finger, forearm and upper arm, using the correct proportion of each, aka coordination.

Exaggerate the movement.

At first you can even make it feel "sloppy" to get the feeling of fingers, hand, arm, forearm participating.

This is the first step, to get the right feeling.

Once you can get this, this is the hardest part, IMO.

You get tired because you're not using the correct proportion/balance of finger, hand, forearm, upper arm.

Once you get that easy feeling of doing it in a slower speed, and feel like you could do it for a long time without a problem -- at a slower speed -- you've made great progress.

Make sense?

[lufia]

I practiced it by spinning my wrists up and down while away from the piano to build stamina. For me slow practice didn't accomplish an end result, the only way i was able to play the tremolo at a fast tempo is to practice playing it fast, in small groups (small resting in btw) then building up your groupings from 4-100. Small fast bursts of energy in groups will get you to building speed.
 Always practice in pp

[j_menz]

I practiced it by spinning my wrists up and down while away from the piano to build stamina. For me slow practice didn't accomplish an end result, the only way i was able to play the tremolo at a fast tempo is to practice playing it fast, in small groups (small resting in btw) then building up your groupings from 4-100. Small fast bursts of energy in groups will get you to building speed.
 Always practice in pp

This is not a particularly fast tremelo in the greater scheme of things.

You seem to imply that all the work is in the wrist. It's not, and that is the problem you and brendan are having.  Pts1 is correct - it's a balance between fingers, wrist, and arm. In this particular case, I find for me it's mostly fingers, with the wrist rotating more in support than as the driver, and the arm governing the movements up and down the keyboard. Try using all your options and you'll find a way that is basically effortless.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Try to keep your fingers as close to the keys as possible so minimal movement is required.  Try it without your fingers leaving the key.

And keep your wrist low.

[pts1]

To add a bit to what I originally said, once you "get the feeling" of the tremolo you can start experimenting with quicker bursts of tempo in little groups  of 5, 6, 7 and so on, also playing an accent on the top note, then the bottom and then top and so on.

I would also suggest different intervals. A fifth is comfortable for the hand, and is frequently part of Alberti bases. The Waldstein Sonata has the identical problem of the Pathetique with the tremolo being in the interval of a fifth.

Also, try starting the tremolo focusing first on the fingers, then shift your awareness to the wrist, then forearm, then upper arm, trying to isolate the feeling of each of the parts and feel them within the whole. Also, try it with a bit higher wrist and different hand shapes until you hit on what works best for you.

After you get the basic feeling, different intervals at different speeds in different groups all can be helpful to get to the "break through" moment when it finally really sinks in.

Its a very special coordination of the right proportion of large slow muscles assisting  small fast ones

I think its a difficult technique to learn well and it will take time, IMHO.

[p2u_]

@ All:

I'm sorry that my first reply didn't seem like very professional, but I just gave the OP what he was asking for: "lead me to YouTube", although he has an account there and should be quite able to get there himself and use the search function, which gives SPLENDID results for what he says he's looking for. This leads me to think that we are once again wasting our time here.

If info is really what he is looking for, then I'd like to add a few points to yet another topic in the category "I'm good, but just not good enough to be super", created by this particular topic starter.

1) A quick search here would have revealed that this topic has been discussed a million times already, the last time with an unhappy ending (it was locked).
2) If we assume that the OP at least TRIED to use that search function but didn't get the required results, then it's maybe time for an FAQ on the subject?

@ brendan765:

The search function for the forum is in the LEFT upper corner right under where it is says: "Hello, brendan765!". It's the third tab. Click to open the search page and pick "Advanced search". There you can write what you are looking for.

Paul

[maitea]

But Paul,

That something has been discussed already doesn't mean we can do so again, as a matter of fact, many of us weren't part of this forum then. And different people contribute differently to the same issues. All Beethoven Sonatas have been played before by amazing pianists already, but that doesn't take away my thrive to play them myself too.. !!! That's life

As for the question, apart from looking for the physical comfort (and you've been given good advice, specially starting with a smaller interval), IMHO don't think of it as a tremolo, tremolos are sometimes a bit a-rhythmic, think of them as the quavers they are, with a strong pulse. Not sure I can explain this properly though.. Good luck!

[p2u_]

But Paul,

That something has been discussed already doesn't mean we can do so again, as a matter of fact, many of us weren't part of this forum then.

Hi, Maite!

Happy Valentine's Day!

Have a look in the OP's profile and enter what you see there as a search term in Google.
Besides, also browse through the posts this topic starter has created here. It is in that context that I wrote my post.

Paul

[maitea]

  Of all people, I didn't think you would write that, but Happy Valentine's to you too!

I see what you mean now..

[brendan765]

Brendan

You must learn to do this slowly, say half or one third tempo, and learn the FEELING of doing it.

The upper arm must also feel very relaxed and free and move.

Its a balance of finger, forearm and upper arm, using the correct proportion of each, aka coordination.

Exaggerate the movement.



Im with you on this, thanks. Ill be working on this.

At first you can even make it feel "sloppy" to get the feeling of fingers, hand, arm, forearm participating.

This is the first step, to get the right feeling.

Once you can get this, this is the hardest part, IMO.

You get tired because you're not using the correct proportion/balance of finger, hand, forearm, upper arm.

Once you get that easy feeling of doing it in a slower speed, and feel like you could do it for a long time without a problem -- at a slower speed -- you've made great progress.

Make sense?

[lostinidlewonder]

I did a word search and didn't see these key words mentioned: light thumb.