Voicing issue (Beethoven Sonata op 26)

[lukediv]

Hi guys,

Having a little issue with voicing the melody with the thumb in this specific bar. Its quite frustrating because its important to hear it above the 4/5th finger in this section but i can't seem to voice it loud enough. i have tried having my thumb come down and strike the key from a higher point than i usually would play, which seems to help a little but doesn't quite achieve the clarity I'm after. Am i on the right track with how to overcome this problem or do i need to do something different?

I have attached a picture of the bar so you guys/girls can see.

How would you work on voicing this specific bit? any little exercises that are worthwhile?

Thanks heaps,

Luke

[chopin2015]

Can you work on just the top voice/32nd notes with your 4th and 5th finger and then join in the thumb? Play the thumb melody, but work on the interval of the thumb note and the top voice. Just play the notes that are together like chords and practice that voicing. Then play just the right hand. Can you reach fine?

[lukediv]

Yeah the stretch is just fine, the last interval is f and Eb which i can just make. Just having trouble making the melody stand out.

Thanks for the tip (just practicing the notes that are together), but I've never really had much success with the differing dynamics within the same hand, how do you achieve that? it has so far, for the most part, alluded me. help? haha

[chopin2015]

When oracticing the 2 notes together, make the outer melody quieter and play your thumb louder. Distribute the weight and pressure of your hand accordingly...aka sound the thumb more than pinkie. See 2nd mov of pathetique...

[chopin2015]

Try playing everything else(other voices) lighter or quieter.

[maitea]

Thanks for the tip (just practicing the notes that are together), but I've never really had much success with the differing dynamics within the same hand, how do you achieve that? it has so far, for the most part, alluded me. help? haha

This is how I'd practice voicing in general: let's have an interval CE 1 and 3 e.g., first let's voice the C louder than the E, so play the thumb on its own with a full nice round resonant tone that you like, and notice how it feels in your hand. Keep the finger in the key listening actively to that strong sound. Then place your 3 in the E with a softer tone (maybe you don't come to the desired sound in one of them, or either of them the first time, relax and repeat, you need to discover where your sound is, no hurry). Once you have your E with the soft touch, notice how differently both fingers feel at the keyboard, how versatile your hand is. Let go, and now try to play the interval at once recalling the sensation in the hand that you've acquired previously. If the sound is not as you wanted, try both notes separatedly again, remember the feeling, and play towards that. It will come! (Shoulders down, free arm, lose wrist and a smile in the face!)

I played that sonata in my second year BMus that's about 8years ago now (oh my!), my only advice is to give yourself plenty of patience, and encouragment! It's one of those pieces that require a lot of attention, no hurry, and a good pair of ears constantly working! Unfortunatelly I was very young hahaha, and just wanted to play play,and have everything ready by yesterday.. Not that any piano piece suits that mentality, but specially not this one! I'll look forward to the day when I do it again! Enjoy every note!

[lukediv]

Thanks for you help, both of you guys. I'm going to spend a bit of time experimenting today with the different sounds and feels.

@Maitea, when you played the first movement (the variations) did you vary the tempo slightly of some of the variations? i feel it can't be played metronomically, but there is no indication in the score to suggest that tempo changes are required. Can you remember if you changed the tempo slightly?

Thanks heaps,

Luke

[maitea]

Hello Luke!

This is only my opinion.. But I think you should keep the tempo steady and not change between variations. However don't think robotically either! There are moments to breath and to be expressive, but without really changing the tempo. I think the fact that there are no other indications in the variations, is a strong clue! Where do you find you need different tempi? faster or slower?

M 

[lukediv]

I feel the 2nd and 4th variation should a tad faster, with the 3th a similar speed to 1 & 5 . I listened to a lecture by Andras Schiff on this sonata and thats where i got the idea from, and i think i agree with him. not substantially faster/slower, but subtle change in the tempo. I just feel those variations lend themselves to a bump in tempo, mate because of the change in mood that the variations bring. Thoughts? haha

If you were interested in hearing the lecture its here:

https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

He does the entire cycle and provides good insight into playing them.

Thanks,

[maitea]

Hello Luke!!

thanks so much for sending this, I'll try to hear it later! Exting!

Haven;t told you the whole story, so here it goes: I don't remember much about the lessons I had when preparing this sonata, it was a very strange/difficult time back then, and that piece, and the others of that period are somehow hidden behind a curtain. However I went to a competition later that year. Didn't win, but played alright. One jury member who had been in my side came to talk to me too after, and gave me her advice on what I had played. I remember her talking about the tempi in my variations And how she thought that despite musically, I had taken perhaps too many liberties! That discussion has stuck in my head, as she had soemthing special in her! (so, i didn't play with a steady tempo then...!)

I had a look at them again after you asked, and all these years later, I agree that there should be consistency between them.. When there "have to be" tempo changes the composer writes them, adding another character or tempo specification before that particular variation.

Sometimes I feel the theme is played a touch slow, and that might maybe push for the changes needed later... However, you have someone as knowledgeble as Andras Schiff backing up the tempo changes with speed, so it is up to you what convinces you most as an artist in order to express the piece better. Have you tried to record yourself and listen after? No worries about notes etc if it's new, but just have a listen from outside how the "story" of the piece is going.

Sorry I cannot give you a more in depth explanation...! Taking decisions is a taugh call to make But is the most fun! And they can change over time. And you should be in the right path, the kwyword being "subtle"

Maite

[lukediv]

Yeah i think it must be a pretty subjective thing, Schiff said that thats just the way he prefers it/plays it.

No i havnt recorded it, still very much in the learning phase, long way to go, but i will make sure i put it in the audition room when I'm done.. (probably give it about 10 months haha)

cheers,

[maitea]

Luke!

I didn't mean to record it for the audition room! Only for you to hear from outside your tempi! Sometimes what we feel what playing doesn't match the sound we'd like to have, but it's hard to know from "inside". My idea was that you would play through at least twice, once keeping the tempo throughout, another time with the changes according to variations, and then heard it! To have a feel of the movement as a whole as its architecture! xx

[slobone]

Your first order of business should be making the bottom notes sound like a melody, without worrying about what the top notes are doing. That's not easy when you have to play all the bottom notes with your thumb. But I would say, the first n-hundred times you play it, focus exclusively on the melody and don't worry about the loudness or softness of the top part. Then, when you're satisfied that the melody has an identity of its own (it should give the illusion of being legato), it should be much easier to adjust the dynamics of the other fingers.

In other words, dynamics, as heard by the listener, are a relative thing. There are many little things you can do to make one part more prominent than the other, even when their decibel level is exactly the same! This is the whole essence of playing Bach, for example. Each part should have its own integrity first, then you do what you can to adjust the relative dynamics. Hope this helps.

[lateromantic]

Ah, I remember playing that sonata (or at least the theme and variations) back in college--in the late 1960s.   Needless to say, I don't remember exactly how I managed that measure, but the passage still sounds very familiar to my mental ear.  Two thoughts:

1.  Is there any possibility of taking at least the Eb with the left thumb, if that doesn't make the LH fingering too awkward?

2.  Most importantly, I don't think all the melody tones should have the same weight, but there should be a dynamic "shape" to the phrase.  Otherwise, the sixteenths, even if you succeed in contrasting them with the surrounding background, will sound percussive rather than legato.  As slobone suggested, I would first play the melody part by itself, together with the surrounding measures, in order to determine the desired "shape."

[slobone]

As slobone suggested, I would first play the melody part by itself, together with the surrounding measures, in order to determine the desired "shape."

I don't think you necessarily need to leave out the upper notes, just focus on trying to make the lower notes sound like a melody. The upper notes aren't actually a separate voice in this case.

But I'm LOL-ing about this piece, because my second teacher gave it to me at a very early age, maybe 10 or 11? I found her handwriting in my old Kalmus urtext edition. What was she thinking? I know for sure I couldn't even play an A flat major scale evenly at that point, let alone do justice to a Beethoven sonata.

[lateromantic]

I don't think you necessarily need to leave out the upper notes, just focus on trying to make the lower notes sound like a melody. The upper notes aren't actually a separate voice in this case.

What I meant was that you need to play through that part of the melody a few times by itself, without the distraction of the upper notes or the LH part, just to get it into your ear how you want that part of the melody to be shaped in order to sound truly legato.  Then, of course, you add the rest of it back in, while preserving the desired melodic shape.

Of course, if you're a pianist of the highest order, you may be able to skip the "by itself" step.

[gvans]

I read this thread a month late and apologize for piling on at this late time. Still, I want to thank lukediv for his link to the Andras Schiff lectures:

https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

Judging from the superb quality of the Op. 26 lecture (which I've been performing lately and know pretty well), I can't wait to listen to the rest of the cycle. Schiff is funny, an outstanding musicologist, and has a wonderful technique. And the Guardian has made this free for us all!

Again, thank you, lukediv.

[lukediv]

I read this thread a month late and apologize for piling on at this late time. Still, I want to thank lukediv for his link to the Andras Schiff lectures:

https://music.guardian.co.uk/classical/page/0,,1943867,00.html

Judging from the superb quality of the Op. 26 lecture (which I've been performing lately and know pretty well), I can't wait to listen to the rest of the cycle. Schiff is funny, an outstanding musicologist, and has a wonderful technique. And the Guardian has made this free for us all!

Again, thank you, lukediv.

not a problem. make sure you post your version to the audition room, very interested to see different interpretations/executions. Im certainly going to post my version hopefully in the next month or two but its a monumental effort.

[looneytuner]

Stephen Segarra
New York ( Piano Tuner) (LooneyTuner)

WATCH : The movie ''Pianomania'' it will show everything I'm trying to explain.

One very important thing to remember is that sometimes it is not your fault but the pianos fault. If your piano is not tuned every 4 to 6 months and you have not had the action regulated in the past 5 years it is very likely that the piano could be messing you up. Don't beat yourself up to soon. Before a major concert or recording in most places the piano is tuned and regulated in the early A.M hours before the musicians arrive.  

STEPHEN SEGARRA

[gvans]

not a problem. make sure you post your version to the audition room, very interested to see different interpretations/executions. Im certainly going to post my version hopefully in the next month or two but its a monumental effort.

I did, on January 27, 2012. I'm not sure how to cross-reference within the web-sight. One way to find the post is to click on my user name and go to my 38th or so post. I've got vid clips from concerts where I played it better, I think, but have yet to upload them. For me, memory issues are an issue in the theme and variations, as each variation, while different (and Schiff's lecture helped illuminate much here), is built on the same harmonic configuration, excepting the minore one. It's easy to mix up cadences.

Regarding the final variation, about which this thread originated, the goal of bringing out and shaping the inner voice melody during the sixteenth note passages must coincide with keeping the overall dynamic in a "pastoral" range (p).

Not so easy.

[ppianista]

There have been several ueful hints as to how the thumb-melody can be brought out, but I miss the simple practical clue.

chopin2015 says:

Distribute the weight and pressure of your hand accordingly...aka sound the thumb more than pinkie.

Distribution of the weight, yes. Meaning here: the thumb gets more weight, the 4th and 5th fingers, playing the slow trill, get less. This only seems to be difficult because usually it's the other way round (as in bars 191-196 and in the coda of this piece): the melody is above, played by the 4th and 5th fingers. So by habit we're inclined to play both kinds of "labour division" between thumb and outward fingers with the same arm position. And that's the crucial technical obstacle here.

To get a feel for the importance of a change of arm position here, play an octave - first with your elbow close to your body, then with the elbow away from your body. If your arm is relaxed you will feel the weight shift from your pinkie to your thumb: putting the elbow out releases the 5th finger; keeping it close to your body releases the thumb.

So, when you practice (and play) bars 179 - 186 and 197 - 203 of this variation be sure to put your elbow out and make your arm as soft as possible. You will feel the support of your armweight in your thumb. (But, of course, here we're talking only of a little weight.)