The Basic Keystroke in Practice- Advice Needed

[drapopolus]

I know everyone is going to say - "Get a teacher". I'm currently living in China, so finding a teacher is not really an option.

I've been playing keyboard for a year now, and my sight reading isn't too bad. I don't hit incorrect notes often, and my timing isn't too bad as I often check it with a metronome. I realised that I haven't really been employing a proper keystroke. I know, this could have been avoided if I had a good teacher but, again, let me state that that's not really an option.

I've been reading Fundamentals of Piano Practice, as well as watching lots of youtube videos on the basic keystroke, and I think I'm executing it properly. My playing feels a lot more relaxed and musical now that I'm using it. I find that it's easy to use for chords, or slow passages, but I'm having trouble at faster tempos.

Also, I'm wondering about how I should start practicing scales. I know all my scales, but I want to practice them utilising a proper keystroke and I'm kind of confused about it. Do I play multiple notes with each drop, such as in 123, then 1234 in parallel sets? I've been practicing using a small gravity drop for each note, but at faster tempos it means my hand is jumping up and down a lot, and I don't think that is the correct method.

Please, I'm looking for serious advice on the matter, as I don't want to waste my time practicing incorrect technique. I really want to master this. I know that it's going to take me at least a year to get a proper feel for this technique, but any advice you can offer will be especially useful for me during the process.

[j_menz]

I realised that I haven't really been employing a proper keystroke.

What makes you think that? And what is a "proper keystroke"?

[ajspiano]

This is a thread that's likely to end badly - really the answer is get a teacher, and I understand that that is no help to you, but you will find that no matter what anyone says in writing you personally have to experiment and figure it out. The information is just simply transfered better in person.

In regard to your point about gravity drops on each and every note.. no that's not quite right. Its closer to drops on each parallel set...   but if you do this, and just flop into the keys over the entire set you'll find it doesn't quite work. As far as your arm goes, you need to develop a kind of subtle floating rise and fall... and there may be other actions that facilitate articulation on the notes such as with the fingers, or rotation of the forearm.

Start with 2 notes fingers 2 and 3. - fall into the first one, rise with the forearm on the second one.. do it slowly, get it to work in a continuous circle rather than 2 independent actions.

Do this on other combinations of 2 fingers, such as 1-3, 4-5, 2-4 etc.  and then try 3 note patterns, 2-3-4, 2-4-3, 1-3-5, etc..  then 4 notes..

Once you are comfortable with this, use the patterns across either parallell sets, or beats in the musical time.

[drapopolus]

What makes you think that? And what is a "proper keystroke"?

I don't know, but I've previously just been applying force and depressing the keys with my fingers like you would on a computer keyboard. This is surely not right. Feeling gravity and playing from the shoulders feels much nicer, and I can move my hand around faster, and generally play faster.

Start with 2 notes fingers 2 and 3. - fall into the first one, rise with the forearm on the second one.. do it slowly, get it to work in a continuous circle rather than 2 independent actions.

Do this on other combinations of 2 fingers, such as 1-3, 4-5, 2-4 etc.  and then try 3 note patterns, 2-3-4, 2-4-3, 1-3-5, etc..  then 4 notes..

Once you are comfortable with this, use the patterns across either parallell sets, or beats in the musical time.

Thanks. I'll try this.

I know everyone will say it's futile, or to get a teacher or give up. But, giving up is not an option, so I'll take whatever descriptions/ advice I can get.

[nyiregyhazi]

This is a thread that's likely to end badly - really the answer is get a teacher, and I understand that that is no help to you, but you will find that no matter what anyone says in writing you personally have to experiment and figure it out. The information is just simply transfered better in person.

In regard to your point about gravity drops on each and every note.. no that's not quite right. Its closer to drops on each parallel set...   but if you do this, and just flop into the keys over the entire set you'll find it doesn't quite work. As far as your arm goes, you need to develop a kind of subtle floating rise and fall... and there may be other actions that facilitate articulation on the notes such as with the fingers, or rotation of the forearm.

Start with 2 notes fingers 2 and 3. - fall into the first one, rise with the forearm on the second one.. do it slowly, get it to work in a continuous circle rather than 2 independent actions.

Do this on other combinations of 2 fingers, such as 1-3, 4-5, 2-4 etc.  and then try 3 note patterns, 2-3-4, 2-4-3, 1-3-5, etc..  then 4 notes..

Once you are comfortable with this, use the patterns across either parallell sets, or beats in the musical time.

While I agree that such exercises are beneficial, I can't agree with the idea of a drop on every set. That would presumably be with every thumb? I'd say it's disastrous to depend on arm impulse for each thumb. Falling down on the thumb is the classic error that squashes the hand and leaves it straining to carry on. Any sense of the arm falling needs to be perfectly cancelled out by the sense of the thumb opening out from the palm. In the end, any drop that would have occurred needs to be cancelled by the thumb, or the results are disastrous.

In my opinion the mistake with dropping exercises is to frame it too much around the drop. People often even claim that it provides the energy for the following notes. Objectively, what really goes on when these things are done well is that you learn to produce the following tones INDEPENDENTLY of downward arm impulse (with the arm having reversed into a sense of drifting slightly up, following the initial drop). The drop simply frees you up and sets the scene for the really important part- which is moving the following keys without individual arm pressures but with actual finger movement, while the arm lightens. I think awareness of the fact that it's the very opposite to what most people believe makes it far easier to get the stage where you neither need ups nor downs, but have a really well balanced interaction in the middle. That is the only way to get scales to the highest level. The real benefit of dropping exercises is freeing yourself of the need to either press or drop the arm, on all of the notes that follow that initial drop. Ironically, it's when these seem to flow out as a natural continuation of the drop, that you're involved in the quality of movement which ultimately replaces any need to be dropping at all. You can instead learn to be using that quality in the first place- rather switch to it after having to drop down.

[ajspiano]

While I agree that such exercises are beneficial, I can't agree with the idea of a drop on every set. That would presumably be with every thumb?

No. Sets don't always start on the thumb.. nor do beats..   nor is it at all a real "drop" in the end.. its just a sense of the downbeat usually, and that the other notes are not on the beat..  I'm trusting that drapopolus won't hold himself up with an overly excessive dragging "drop".

Beats are more significant than sets in a scale passage I feel, and so the "drop" would be on 1, then 2, then 4, then 3.. in a single octave ascending and decending scale with the most common standard fingering.

[j_menz]

I've previously just been applying force and depressing the keys with my fingers like you would on a computer keyboard. This is surely not right.

Hmmm. I learnt the piano before there were computer keyboards (or at least before real people used them) and find I even now "play" the keyboard using my piano technique to quite some extent. Not good for the keyboard, or anyone working nearby, btw.

I wonder whether there is a new generation who now do things in reverse and whether this should be consciously addressed by teachers and in the literature.

[nyiregyhazi]

No. Sets don't always start on the thumb.. nor do beats..   nor is it at all a real "drop" in the end.. its just a sense of the downbeat usually, and that the other notes are not on the beat..  I'm trusting that drapopolus won't hold himself up with an overly excessive dragging "drop".

How would you organise the sets then? Physically, I conceive things from thumb to thumb, if I had to subdivide. In a scale, I'm not sure if I'd like the idea of organising in subdivisions with even the mildest idea of a drop- rather than in a large seamless movement. If he's dropping on every finger at present, he'll need to be extremely careful to eliminate drops from the thumb. I'd make the focus of dropping exercises 99% about the ups rather than the downs, in order to break his habit of dropping into every separate note.

[ajspiano]

How would you organise the sets then? In a scale, I'm not sure if I'd like the idea of organising in subdivisions with even the mildest idea of a drop- rather than in a large seamless movement. If he's dropping on every finger at present, he'll need to be extremely careful to eliminate drops from the thumb. I'd make the focus of dropping exercises 99% about the ups rather than the downs, in order to break his habit of dropping into every separate note.

I edited the above post re the scale.. assuming that its 4/4 time and its notated in semiquavers.

[nyiregyhazi]

I edited the above post re the scale.. assuming that its 4/4 time and its notated in semiquavers.

Okay, I see what you mean. I'd have to say that I'd still be very skeptical of routinely using arm impulse for such a role though, rather than learning a more seamless movement. I think it's really important to achieve subtle rhythmic emphasis via the fingers. From there, you have the option of adding something extra if desired. However, if even basic scales require even subtle arm pressures for rhythmic shape it suggests lack of control over the fingers. Also, if a sense of downward action from the arm is intended, it's far harder to assess if it's being done healthily or in a way that interrupts. When your standard approach flows seamlessly, you have a yardstick to judge any intended arm pressures against- making it safe to use them when you choose. When the standard approach depends on even slight bobbing as the norm, it's easy to get accustomed to burdening yourself with that pressure and fail to realise how much it can potentially hinder free flow- due to no point of comparison.

[drapopolus]

How would you organise the sets then? Physically, I conceive things from thumb to thumb, if I had to subdivide. In a scale, I'm not sure if I'd like the idea of organising in subdivisions with even the mildest idea of a drop- rather than in a large seamless movement. If he's dropping on every finger at present, he'll need to be extremely careful to eliminate drops from the thumb. I'd make the focus of dropping exercises 99% about the ups rather than the downs, in order to break his habit of dropping into every separate note.

I understand that it's a delicate balancing act and I am receiving the key bed with what I think is optimal bone alignment, then relaxing as quickly as I can. I also understand that gravity is just a reference force, and I'm doing drops into my lap to test make sure that I'm reaching true relaxation and release on impact.

With scales. I've tried doing parallel sets as per Fundamentals of Piano Practice. I have no problem with chord attack, when all my fingers land on the keys simultaneously, but I'm having trouble slowing it down. Even at the slowest speed, my sets are very fast. They're too fast the seamlessly connect.

[ajspiano]

but I'm having trouble slowing it down. Even at the slowest speed, my sets are very fast. They're too fast the seamlessly connect.

Because you've fixed your arm action, but probably have somewhere close to zero appropriate finger articulation, as in..  you are ALL arm, and just rolling across the keys.. this is really hard to do slowly because there's no support for the freefalling arm..

Slow your arm down, and articulate your fingers as they come into contact with the keys..  before they hit the keys they may move, but allow them to feel as if falling to the keys, rather than being driven by a forceful finger action.

Think like - arm gets my finger to the key, finger plays the key..  and try to connect the too concepts into a smooth single motion.

[nyiregyhazi]

I understand that it's a delicate balancing act and I am receiving the key bed with what I think is optimal bone alignment, then relaxing as quickly as I can. I also understand that gravity is just a reference force, and I'm doing drops into my lap to test make sure that I'm reaching true relaxation and release on impact.

Relaxing what? If you relax your finger you will force your arm to work hard to keep balance If you relax your arm after reaching the bed you'll burden your hand. If you move well, you just evolve into a state where the finger is in balance. If you have to perceive relaxation, it suggests either that you're relaxing muscles that shouldn't have been involved during key depression to start with, or that you may be over relaxing important activities in maintaining balance. My most recent blog post is all about the specific activities in low effort balance. It's very easy to underdo one part and create a bigger workload elsewhere. I never perceive relaxation at the keybed in scales, but simply perceive evolution into sustainable balance (that is so comfortable that I wouldn't want to relax from it). Relaxation at the keybed usually means letting go of useful actions or forgiving excessive efforts that never should have been involved in sounding the key (which must be eliminated outright- not relaxed from, after the harm has been done).

This would explain why you can't go slow. The first step is to pay attention to settling into functional balance on every key.

[drapopolus]

Thanks for all the advice, but different people are saying different things, and left to my own devices I'll just end up worse off in the long run.

I managed to find a teacher - which is going to be tough because I'll have to do my lessons in Chinese and I'll have to hope the teacher knows what they're doing.

Although I was initially hopeful about Fundamentals of Piano Practice, the whole thing has left me more confused. For all the talk of science, Chang sure is verbose and, at times, borderline hocus.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thanks for all the advice, but different people are saying different things, and left to my own devices I'll just end up worse off in the long run.

I managed to find a teacher - which is going to be tough because I'll have to do my lessons in Chinese and I'll have to hope the teacher knows what they're doing.

Although I was initially hopeful about Fundamentals of Piano Practice, the whole thing has left me more confused. For all the talk of science, Chang sure is verbose and, at times, borderline hocus.

The problem with Chang is that it's purely organisational. He doesn't convey anything much at all about either the basic quality of movement or the basic quality of balance. Miss those and organisational approaches are simply not enough to correct them.

[drapopolus]

Relaxing what? If you relax your finger you will force your arm to work hard to keep balance If you relax your arm after reaching the bed you'll burden your hand. If you move well, you just evolve into a state where the finger is in balance. If you have to perceive relaxation, it suggests either that you're relaxing muscles that shouldn't have been involved during key depression to start with, or that you may be over relaxing important activities in maintaining balance. My most recent blog post is all about the specific activities in low effort balance. It's very easy to underdo one part and create a bigger workload elsewhere. I never perceive relaxation at the keybed in scales, but simply perceive evolution into sustainable balance (that is so comfortable that I wouldn't want to relax from it). Relaxation at the keybed usually means letting go of useful actions or forgiving excessive efforts that never should have been involved in sounding the key (which must be eliminated outright- not relaxed from, after the harm has been done).

This would explain why you can't go slow. The first step is to pay attention to settling into functional balance on every key.

I've read this post several times and I think I get what you mean. I also read the entries on your blog. Even though I have a teacher now, we're using simple repertoire, and my teacher is getting me to drop onto every key. This is fine because we are going very slow, but I've still got no answer when it comes to scales.

At the moment, I'm approaching it from this angle: I'm using a small gravity drop onto the thumb, and rolling the hand slowly from thumb - index - middle finger, then doing a second gravity drop - thumb, index, middle, ring, pinky. I'm aiming for a nice balance with each finger. I'm using a rotation of the forearm to get this roll happening. Is there anything wrong with this approach?

No doubt my teacher will help me with this but, there's a language barrier, and I'm not sure how long it's going to take till I get to that point.

[nyiregyhazi]

I've read this post several times and I think I get what you mean. I also read the entries on your blog. Even though I have a teacher now, we're using simple repertoire, and my teacher is getting me to drop onto every key. This is fine because we are going very slow, but I've still got no answer when it comes to scales.

At the moment, I'm approaching it from this angle: I'm using a small gravity drop onto the thumb, and rolling the hand slowly from thumb - index - middle finger, then doing a second gravity drop - thumb, index, middle, ring, pinky. I'm aiming for a nice balance with each finger. I'm using a rotation of the forearm to get this roll happening. Is there anything wrong with this approach?

No doubt my teacher will help me with this but, there's a language barrier, and I'm not sure how long it's going to take till I get to that point.

In one sense its not wrong to practise starting groups with a drop but there's a HUGE problem with always falling into the thumb in scales. You'll never get effortless speed from that or control over the line. I wrote a post exclusively about the thumb that has relevant exercises. You get far more control by the action that lifts the rest of the hand up and away from the thumb than by allowing the arm to fall down to follow the thumb. Create key movement from the thumb by opening the space between thumb and fingers and lengthening the thumb out- not by letting it sag and having your arm crash down behind it every time..

PS do at least some work rolling the hand in the OPPOSITE direction- ie not to press down through fingers but to actively float them away. If you're moving your fingers properly, it will work fine with rotation in either direction. If it doesn't, your fingers are not doing enough to generate movement and are simply stiffening to bear arm force- which will ultimately mean a lot of strain and effort. Speed and precision will never come if you create key movement by trying to roll force of the arm through static fingers. It sounds to me like you're possibly squashing through a stiff and burdened hand, rather than using the arm to inspire free finger movement. Instead of using the arm to make downward pressure, give it the very opposite role to see what your fingers can do.

[chopin2015]

What do you(someone) think about different fingerings on chromatic scales?

[maitea]

I do two versions of chromatic scales  the more normal one: 13131231313123 and the other43434534343453, left doing 43435434343543

[p2u_]

What do you(someone) think about different fingerings on chromatic scales?

My fingering is usually intuitive and follows more or less the principles outlined by Jura Margulis: "Pianist to Pianist" - Chromatic scales fingerings
As you can see, he has 4 ways of grouping: the obvious, the refined, the excellent, and the extremely fast.

Paul

[maitea]

Paul, he should def. include Maite's 43435... Torture at first, but it's a brillian preparation for CHopin Op10. n2

[maitea]

What an intersting blog he has! Thanks for that!

[hfmadopter]

What an intersting blog he has! Thanks for that!

Indeed, nice blog ! I like on this page the last topic about the inferiority complex of the fourth finger, he describes well something I've been thinking about lately.  https://www.pianisttopianist.com/?cat=15

[nyiregyhazi]

My fingering is usually intuitive and follows more or less the principles outlined by Jura Margulis: "Pianist to Pianist" - Chromatic scales fingerings
As you can see, he has 4 ways of grouping: the obvious, the refined, the excellent, and the extremely fast.

Paul

Interesting. I use the one he calls excellent regularly. I'm just confused by the refined one. It would be interesting to know the explanation for that one, as I don't immediately see what purpose it serves.

[nyiregyhazi]

I do two versions of chromatic scales  the more normal one: 13131231313123 and the other43434534343453, left doing 43435434343543

Personally I like to go with 45 as the default in the second rather than 34. Obviously you need that fingering for thirds, but in op 10 no 2 I like the same fingering as for legato octaves.

[drapopolus]

My teacher is currently getting me to drop my hand onto the first note of a phrase, and then by raising each finger, bring down the subsequent notes without raising my hand. I'll always use gravity on the first note of a phrase. A phrase is indicated by an arched line over the stave. Is this good practice? There is a language barrier between my teacher and I, and I figure I can probably find a reasonable assessment here. Can someone please offer some advice. I feel like it's kind of odd to try lifting individual fingers above the hand and bring them down. Though, she may just be overemphasizing, as I'm playing at slow speeds.

[chopin2015]

You have to move with the music, ut helps the melody come out.

Thanks for the chromatic tips, yall!

[drapopolus]

You have to move with the music, ut helps the melody come out.

Thanks for the chromatic tips, yall!

I get that. But my question is more in regards to technique. Is it ok to be raising each finger independent of the hand like that? Of course, I dont force the other fingers down at the same time, as when I move the fourth, the fifth also moves. This is fine. But being instructed to raise each finger (keeping it bent at the middle knuckle) seems strange to me. Does this sound odd, or is it standard?

[hardy_practice]

Indeed, nice blog ! I like on this page the last topic about the inferiority complex of the fourth finger, he describes well something I've been thinking about lately.  https://www.pianisttopianist.com/?cat=15

I do like this guy.  Re: fourth finger - 'If the finger lies relaxed on the keys and is activated without continuous tension - i.e. relaxed immediately after contact - the up lift of the key provides half the effort to lift the finger.'  Thanks for bringing him to light!

I will say though it's not the answer to all the fourth finger problems.  As for the OT - different strokes for different folks.  I believe in the most sensitive.

[nyiregyhazi]

I do like this guy.  Re: fourth finger - 'If the finger lies relaxed on the keys and is activated without continuous tension - i.e. relaxed immediately after contact - the up lift of the key provides half the effort to lift the finger.'

Personally I'd say ALL the effort to lift the finger, at times. release is often literally all it takes.

This only applies for instant release of the key in fast playing though. It should not be mistaken for the same thing as your fantasy of a finger that "relaxes" on a long note yet supposedly keeps the key down by some unexplained magic.

[hardy_practice]

It should not be mistaken for the same thing as your fantasy of a finger that "relaxes" on a long note yet supposedly keeps the key down by some unexplained magic.

Not my fantasy mate.

[drapopolus]

As for the OT - different strokes for different folks.  I believe in the most sensitive.

Definitely. But, I was asking specifically whether it is a good idea to lift each finger individually. I'm being instructed to raise each finger up and bring it down while the hand remains stationary.

[slobone]

Ok -- somebody may have said this but if so I didn't see it. Always practice scales in 4's. That is, put the accent on every fourth note. You will have to do four octaves up and down to make it come out right. CdefGabcDefgAbcdEfga etc This helps overcome the tendency to emphasize whatever note the thumb happens to fall on and give you practice controlling the strength of all five fingers. I don't know how this fits in with the drop theory.

Once you've mastered playing in 4's, you can vary it by playing in triplets, quintuplets, whatever. Or put the emphasis on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th note. cDefgAbcdEfga... cdEfgaBcdeFgab... cdeFgabCdefGabc... Mix it up to keep yourself alert.

[hardy_practice]

Definitely. But, I was asking specifically whether it is a good idea to lift each finger individually. I'm being instructed to raise each finger up and bring it down while the hand remains stationary.

That's fine as an exercise.  You'd look a bit silly doing that in performance - best is to play from the surface of the key.