Disharmonious tones in modern transcriptions. Why?

[kriatina]

Hello,

I would like to know why in so many modern scores and transcriptions
I frequently find disharmonious tones ?

I have noticed that in older transcriptions
of Bach, Purcell etc there are no disharmonious tones to be found.

Can anyone explain how these disharmonious tones "creep into" modern transcriptions?

Thank you very much from Kristina.

[zezhyrule]

Many 'older' transcriptions used harmonic conventions that were common at the time, yet would've been unheard (hehe) of back when the original pieces were written. It's the same now.

[j_menz]

Hello,

I would like to know why in so many modern scores and transcriptions
I frequently find disharmonious tones ?

I have noticed that in older transcriptions
of Bach, Purcell etc there are no disharmonious tones to be found.

Can anyone explain how these disharmonious tones "creep into" modern transcriptions?

Thank you very much from Kristina.

I'm not familiar with any transcriptions of Purcell, so will limit my comments to Bach transcriptions.

Liszt was about the first serious transcriber of Bach. He uses some dissonances. Busoni is probably the best transcriber and he uses quite a number of them. In both cases, they are used to generate a simulation of the sound of the original instrument, most notably the organ.

They didn't "creep in", they are intentional and effective.

No more modern transcriber wold be unaware of these earlier attempts, the devices they used (indeed Busoni actually wrote a book about it), nor what effects were achieved.

[zezhyrule]

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of that. I need to read up on that.

[j_menz]

I should also add that there are is shortage of dissonances in Bach in the original, so any transcription is bound to have these or be not so much a transcription as a bowdlerisation.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm not familiar with any transcriptions of Purcell, so will limit my comments to Bach transcriptions.

Liszt was about the first serious transcriber of Bach. He uses some dissonances. Busoni is probably the best transcriber and he uses quite a number of them. In both cases, they are used to generate a simulation of the sound of the original instrument, most notably the organ.

They didn't "creep in", they are intentional and effective.

No more modern transcriber wold be unaware of these earlier attempts, the devices they used (indeed Busoni actually wrote a book about it), nor what effects were achieved.

Could you give examples? I don't recall any notable chromaticism in Bach transcriptions by either. Busoni sometimes arranges a suspension to create a semitone, but Bach himself wasn't adverse to that either. I'm struggling to think of places where they insert significant dissonance. It's largely an issue of texture in their arrangements, it seems to me.

[j_menz]

Could you give examples?

This is a particularly good one:

[nyiregyhazi]

This is a particularly good one:

I don't know the original version, so are there particular harmonic clashes in the score that are not in the original?

[kriatina]

Thank you very much j_menz, zeshyrule and nyiregyhazi
for your thoughts on my question.

It would seem this issue is much more complicated than I first thought.

I certainly have to study many more transcriptions like those by Busoni.

Thanks also, j_menz for this very interesting example by Edwin Fischer.
I was wondering how he sounded and I was reading that his concerts
were very much admired.
 
Thank you very much again from Kristina.

[j_menz]

I don't know the original version, so are there particular harmonic clashes in the score that are not in the original?

It depends a bit on what you mean. Organs produce overtones which can produce clashes that aren't apparent just looking at the notes. The Busoni emulates these by explicitly putting them in the score (since a piano doesn't produce overtones in the same way or to the same extent). So the "clashes" are in the original, but not (apparent) in the original score.

[nyiregyhazi]

It depends a bit on what you mean. Organs produce overtones which can produce clashes that aren't apparent just looking at the notes. The Busoni emulates these by explicitly putting them in the score (since a piano doesn't produce overtones in the same way or to the same extent). So the "clashes" are in the original, but not (apparent) in the original score.

Could you give one or two specific examples, with bar numbers perhaps? I'm open to the possibility, but I've never thought of Bach/Busoni as being harmonically adventurous, beyond Bach's style- having played the Chaconne and some Chorale Preludes. Perhaps I'm missing the extent of what he does, but to my ears it always seemed it was basically just the texture that he is creative about. Which particular clashes are in the score of the Busoni but not in the Bach? Are they actually chromatic reharmonisations or simply a different texture for the same basic harmony?

[j_menz]

Could you give one or two specific examples, with bar numbers perhaps? I'm open to the possibility, but I've never thought of Bach/Busoni as being harmonically adventurous, beyond Bach's style- having played the Chaconne and some Chorale Preludes. Perhaps I'm missing the extent of what he does, but to my ears it always seemed it was basically just the texture that he is creative about. Which particular clashes are in the score of the Busoni but not in the Bach? Are they actually chromatic reharmonisations or simply a different texture for the same basic harmony?

Bar 9 for starters - D-Eb_Bb doubled mid bar by Busoni, thin texture in the original (made up for by the nature of the organ).  It's pretty much throughout if you check.  This is a transcription of an organ work, not a chorale or a violin piece. Look at the textures throughout.  You will also note that it's polyphonic throughout, so "harmony" is not quite sufficient a concept.

[nyiregyhazi]

Bar 9 for starters - D-Eb_Bb doubled mid bar by Busoni, thin texture in the original (made up for by the nature of the organ).  It's pretty much throughout if you check.  This is a transcription of an organ work, not a chorale or a violin piece. Look at the textures throughout.  You will also note that it's polyphonic throughout, so "harmony" is not quite sufficient a concept.

Ah, okay. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "disharmonious" myself (involving an implied pedal note to give a passing semitone in a way that certainly wouldn't have been out of the question from Bach himself- rather than a more modern reharmonisation, as such) but I see what you're talking about. For me it's only the style of texture which goes beyond Bach, rather than a case of using more modern harmonic ideals than those of the time.

[kriatina]

P.S. I have been thinking and wondering.

If for example in a composition/transcription the pianist is supposed
to play a “B” with the left hand and a “C” with the right hand at the same time
and it sounds as if the pianist “makes a mistake”...every time...
 
What could be the musical purpose of creating a sound like this?

Thanks from Kristina.

[j_menz]

P.S. I have been thinking and wondering.

If for example in a composition/transcription the pianist is supposed
to play a “B” with the left hand and a “C” with the right hand at the same time
and it sounds as if the pianist “makes a mistake”...every time...
 
What could be the musical purpose of creating a sound like this?

Thanks from Kristina.

That would depend very much on the context. Do you have a specific example in mind?

[ajspiano]

P.S. I have been thinking and wondering.

If for example in a composition/transcription the pianist is supposed
to play a “B” with the left hand and a “C” with the right hand at the same time
and it sounds as if the pianist “makes a mistake”...every time...
 
What could be the musical purpose of creating a sound like this?

Thanks from Kristina.

Your ear likes consonant harmony, as does pretty much everyones.. so you dislike hearing a certain sound.. like a minor 2nd (your example)

Suppose our composer is instead a painter..  you don't always paint sunshine and flowers, you may like to create something more confronting...  Sounds don't have to sound good, and ones that sound bad don't have to sound like mistakes, they are simply bad sounds that create an effect.

For a closer parallel to use of dissonance in tonal compostition - Suppose our composer is instead a film maker. He creates a conflict, which provides intrigue and interest, it puts the audience on edge.. then he follows it with a resolution. The emotion transition is effective.. Tense and uncomfortable followed by a happy ending makes an effective likable film..

..or for that matter, some artists like to leave their conflicts unreasolved.. to make a viewer/listener walk away with a negative feeling..  it communicates negative emotions, the sound of anger for example.

[kriatina]

Thank you , j_menz and ajspiano.

I have Emil Sauter’s Edition of Friedemann Bach’s “Der Fruehling” (Spring)
and I am wondering how reliable this transcription is?

I have not been able to locate the original but I have been reading that Friedemann was
in and out of work, depressed and financially & otherwise assisted by his father
most of the time. Friedemann’s life had not turned out as promised.
 
Whilst listening to Sauter’s Edition of Friedemann’s “Spring” played on youtube,
it comes over as upbeat & fast & happy
and there are nevertheless disturbing disharmonies in it,
but the composition as a whole does not really feel harmonious or happy or up-beat
and I wonder whether it was given the wrong title with a wrong tempo
and really means something else altogether?

I wonder whether these disharmonious notes are really original or being put in
by the transcriber/editor?

How certain can I be - as a beginner - about the honesty and reliability
of transcriptions & editions of music?

Did a composers of Friedemann’s level not rather express an isolated desolation
in a slow-played composition like Beethoven’s “Moonlight Sonata”
(similar desperation & isolation for different reasons) -
which was not given such a title by Beethoven anyway?

What do you think?

Thanks from Kristina.