How can I play this chord

[persaciv]

Hello,

I won't waste your time with any introductions. I'll ask my simple question directly. Suffice it to say that I'm an amateur and beginner piano player and that the piece of music I'm trying to master is not classical. (I can play half the piece now so I think it's at my level)

Many of you here must be used to playing complicated classical pieces, so this popular piece I am referring you to must be a piece of cake for you

Here's a capture of a section of the score my question is about:(please have a look) https://postimage.org/image/m8jncg3sf/

Here is my question: on the score, the first note of the chord to be played in the bass clef is usually a dotted half note or a whole note followed by several quarter notes that should be played right after while the first note (the dotted half or the whole) should still be sounding. Of course the right hand is busy playing the melody at that time in the treble clef. I find it difficult to play the notes of the chord without lifting my finger of its first note as indicated. On the first measure of the section in the picture I uploaded, it is simply impossible! (I circled it with red). Please have a look. If I use the sustain pedal to sustain that first note of the chord, then all the subsequent notes (of the chord and of the melody) will be sustained, and that's not the desired effect.

Should I just ignore it and play the dotted half note or the whole as quarter like the following notes? or is there a special technique for that? I am lost, please help.
Thank you.

[nystul]

Pedal actually is the desired effect there.  It is not a problem for the shorter notes to be sustained, because the ones in the left hand form arpeggios and the melody is high enough that it shouldn't be too muddy.  Basically each time you play one of the long stem down bass notes, release the pedal and then immediately press it down again. 

[persaciv]

hello,

thanks for your reply.

I've been told elsewhere that the sostenuto pedal would do the trick. What do you think?

Also, because I don't have a sostenuto pedal on my piano, do you think I should struggle to play those chords as written, by stretching my hand even if it's a bit hard?

[ajspiano]

I've been told elsewhere that the sostenuto pedal would do the trick. What do you think?

As Nystul said - The regular sustain pedal will be sufficient, and is almost undoubtedly intended despite it not being on the score.

And for the record, they are not written like that to indicate holding the notes and undue stretching. The score differentiates between a bass and middle voice within the left hand. This tells you that there should be a strong pulse on the bass notes, and a dynamic differentiation between the minims and quavers (the lower notes slightly louder than the other LH notes).

[nyiregyhazi]

hello,

thanks for your reply.

I've been told elsewhere that the sostenuto pedal would do the trick. What do you think?

Also, because I don't have a sostenuto pedal on my piano, do you think I should struggle to play those chords as written, by stretching my hand even if it's a bit hard?

Why a sostenuto pedal? Would you need to play the accompaniment detached? It's just a standard bass note plus harmony. There's no value in the middle pedal. That's only for more complex situations where you could not preserve a long bass note without the sustain pedal smearing different harmonies into a mess (or if you need detached notes). Why strain your hand when simply controlling the sound has the same result?

[ajspiano]

Why a sostenuto pedal? Would you need to play the accompaniment detached? It's just a standard bass note plus harmony. There's no value in the middle pedal. That's only for more complex situations where you could not preserve a long bass note without the sustain pedal smearing different harmonies into a mess (or if you need detached notes). Why strain your hand when simply controlling the sound has the same result?

OP says they are an amatuer and beginner - I suspect he/she is at the point of taking the score too literally..  someone at this point would reasonably expect that the quavers should be detached and the bass held in this example.. not having enough experience to draw a better picture of the composers intent when it isn't marked explicitly.

[nyiregyhazi]

OP says they are an amatuer and beginner - I suspect he/she is at the point of taking the score too literally..  someone at this point would reasonably expect that the quavers should be detached and the bass held in this example.. not having enough experience to draw a better picture of the composers intent when it isn't marked explicitly.

Really? I agree that taking it too literally but I'd have thought that most people will quickly come to regard connected notes as being the norm, especially in this style. I think they're simply missing the fact that the middle pedal has no benefit over regular pedalling.

[persaciv]

nyiregyhazi, the logic behind my suggestion of using the sostenuto pedal is to sustain the first bass note and play the rest of the bass notes without them being sustained as would the normal sustain pedal do. The sostenuto pedal as I learnt is used to "sustain only those notes that are being held down when the pedal is depressed, allowing future notes played to be unaffected" (Wikipedia). So it makes sense.

Still, I think I'm just complicating things where they are simple as you and Nystul say... I guess I'll just use the ordinary sustain pedal, and thanks Nystul for mentioning the dynamic effect on the bass notes which I hadn't paid attention to... I'll correct that as well.

And ajspiano, I do connect the notes, I just thought that the composer wanted to give that first bass note some sort of importance compared to the others by keeping it sounding a bit longer than the rest of the notes, but I guess that importance is given in through making it louder as Nystul pointed out.

[pts1]

Adding to the excellent advice the other posters have given, I think the following suggestion may make this easier and more understandable for you.

Having looked at your sheet music, practice the left hand by first playing the low base note(s)
then the higher 8th notes as a single chord.

For example: in the first measure play the low octave on B, then move your hand up and play F# B D as a single chord instead of individual articulated notes.

Change the regular sustaining pedal with each playing of the low note holding it as you play the "chord" and you have the desired effect.

If you will practice this as a base note then a chord, base note chord, etc.,  you will find the articulation of the eighth notes when played as written will be  a "piece of cake" since your left hand will "know" what to do.

Make sense?

[ajspiano]

And ajspiano, I do connect the notes, I just thought that the composer wanted to give that first bass note some sort of importance compared to the others by keeping it sounding a bit longer than the rest of the notes, but I guess that importance is given in through making it louder as Nystul pointed out.

Pretty sure I pointed that out.. not that that matters. 

I was sure you connected the quavers, when I said detached I mean that they would not be sustained for the lack of pedal.. poor choice of words on my part.

[ajspiano]

Really? I agree that taking it too literally but I'd have thought that most people will quickly come to regard connected notes as being the norm, especially in this style. I think they're simply missing the fact that the middle pedal has no benefit over regular pedalling.

It depends though. We don't really know where OP is at, or what teaching he/she has had.. I've seen plenty of people who start out by following the score EXTREMELY literally without regard to the stylistic/musical context. I figured that may have been the case here because of the sostenuto question.. since that pedal would allow for a non sustained execution of those notes exactly as they are written..

[persaciv]

pts1, I can already do what you describe
I was just suspecting that something was wrong with what I'm doing because the sustain pedal sustains all the notes of the chord and since I'm a beginner I'm taking things too literally as the others said and wanted to make just the base note of the chord to be sustained and not the others...

ajspiano, now it's clear
yea, that's exactly why I talked about using the sostenuto pedal, I mean, seriously, am I not supposed to follow what's written on the score, or are meticulous people penalized when it comes to music?!
I'm a beginner, studied music language by myself, learnt to play 3 popular songs on piano by myself, and now, 2 months after I first touched a piano, I decided to learn this piece of music which my favorite, a composition by famous rock singer, I can play half the song now with no problems and at the correct speed, I's just that halfway through the song I suddenly stopped, thinking, it sounds good, but is it how it is meant to sound? I actually have a piano version of this song on my computer, and I can hear no difference between my playing and the one one the mp3.

It's a song the means so much to me and I want to play it right, that's why I created this topic, but it remains popular music, not classical, so at the end of the day, I can still play it the way I want, with or without pedaling

Thanks everyone.

[ajspiano]

am I not supposed to follow what's written on the score, or are meticulous people penalized when it comes to music?!

Yes you're supposed to follow the score, but the score is a relatively limited representation of a piece of music, especially if you take it a face value without digging any deeper.

Think of it like reading words..  right now as far as music, you are probably able to read it as if when reading this post you were only able to recognize individual letters and sound out all the words, and those words would mean nothing to you (as if they were in a foreign language). In time you'll be able to read whole musical sentences, and understand their meaning well enough to draw much more from the score than just the notes and their lengths.

[persaciv]

I perfectly understand what you say ajspiano, though of course I can only imagine what it is to be able to really read music. I'm counting on experience to gain that, as I am definitely not going to pursue any musical studies.

What really started this questioning of mine is page 2 of the composition, where there are whole notes that would be hard to sustain without creating some sort of noise... have a look please:

https://s15.postimage.org/4zxrz0ki3/sheet2.png

Here the chords are easy enough for me to keep pressing the base note till the end of the measure while playing the rest of the notes (if I follow the score literally), but do you think this is what is meant? I think answering this question will make things much clearer for me.

[pts1]

Just one more thing

Perhaps the problem is not so much the pedal but making musical decisions about what's important.

In my opinion, looking at your music,  the melody is most important, the base notes are next in importance, and the least important are the eighth notes. This is pretty typical, especially in popular music.

This means the melody needs to stand out more than the base and the eighth notes provide mostly harmony and mood.

As I see it, the LH will make or break this piece of music if not proportioned correctly.

After you get the basic notes you should think about what I mentioned above, and also such elements as crescendo, decrescendo, speeding up, slowing down, accents, and so on.

I would suggest that if you can practice this and make it sound musical and appealing with NO PEDAL AT ALL, then you're well on your way to giving a musical performance.

In the end, I think you'll find that the pedal is much like spicing a dish... you must first have the correct ingredients in the correct amounts prepared correctly. Without this, the salt and pepper won't mean a thing.

[ajspiano]

I perfectly understand what you say ajspiano, though of course I can only imagine what it is to be able to really read music. I'm counting on experience to gain that, as I am definitely not going to pursue any musical studies.

What really started this questioning of mine is page 2 of the composition, where there are whole notes that would be hard to sustain without creating some sort of noise... have a look please:

https://s15.postimage.org/4zxrz0ki3/sheet2.png

Here the chords are easy enough for me to keep pressing the base note till the end of the measure while playing the rest of the notes (if I follow the score literally), but do you think this is what is meant? I think answering this question will make things much clearer for me.

Exposure to more and more music (both reading and playing, - and composing is a pretty big helper here) will gradually shape how and what information you draw from a score.

Pts1 has made basically the point I was going to make just now.

Consider that this collection of dots, while it is an explicit instruction set (this note, this length) it is written as a representation of an overall sound with multiple components and ideas. As pts said, the melody is the big deal here, and the bass is the rhythmic and harmonic structure used to support it.. and all the stuff in the middle just adds harmony. Shape the melody first, make it sound nice by itself, and then support it with the bass notes and fill in the rest last..   this will help you arrive at decisions  about how literally you should take different aspects of the notation and what to do with the pedal and dynamics.

Would I be right in assuming this is an arrangement of a tune that has a band accompaniment and a singer? listen to that, listen to the parts by themselves (as in focus on the melody, then foucs on the bass, then the accompaniment) then observe how the parts interact..  this will help you understand what it is you are trying to aurally create, rather than just knowing what notes are played when.

[persaciv]

Pts1 and ajspiano, I understand your advice, value it, and thank you for it, but would it be impolite of me to insist on clear answer on which I could base my practice?

For the second page of the composition which I posted (https://s15.postimage.org/4zxrz0ki3/sheet2.png), regarding the whole notes at the beginning of each chord, there are 4 possibilities:

1- Hold the base note of the chord (whole note) through the measure using my finger.
2- Hold the base note of the chord (whole note) till the middle of the measure (where the chord ends) using my finger.
3- Press the pedal till the end of the measure.
4- Press the pedal till the middle of the measure. (where the chord ends)

What should be done in your opinion?

[ajspiano]

1- Hold the base note of the chord (whole note) through the measure using my finger.
2- Hold the base note of the chord (whole note) till the middle of the measure (where the chord ends) using my finger.
3- Press the pedal till the end of the measure.
4- Press the pedal till the middle of the measure. (where the chord ends)

What should be done in your opinion?

well, there are many more than 4 options...  because the pedal isnt an on/off switch, and its job isnt only to sustain notes, it adds resonance/overtones.

but personally, i would probably disregard the rests in the left hand - unless I particularly liked the sound of the melody alone there.. 

And, generally I wouldn't hold any of the left hand notes, or the accompaniment notes in the RH conciously.. (the melody would likely be physically legato even with pedal)  the pedal would sustain the accomp parts, EXCEPT, where I may want to do multiple (and possibly quite rapid) pedal changes in a bar to avoid any pedal caused muddiness/dissonance in the RH parts.

I'd take that "Bass, note note, chord" idea as being fluently connected as the support for the melody, and my LH probably releases from the keys as the RH chord or accompaniment note plays..  allowing for a really fluent physical transition to the next LH figure...   unless I'm holding the LH because of extra pedal changes.

 baring in mind I'm trying to map a physical execution for something here without actually trying it, so it could be a bit off from what I'd actually do..   and what I'm trying to say would be a lot clearer if you could see it demonstrated..

It also probably wouldn't be the same every bar.

[mikeowski]

For the second page, you shouldn't need pedal at all, except if you can't reach a 9th in measures 1 and 4.
But for consistencies sake I would use the pedal the same way you use it for the first page.

Also the bass notes are pedal points. See the markings over the measures? D and Gm7 here. The Bass note is always the tonic of the chord the measure is in (same for the first page). It pulls the harmony towards it, in this case D or Gm, and makes the harmonic structure clearer.
So I would say definitely try to keep the bass notes as long as possible. If you switch the pedal, you should hold them with your finger.

[nystul]

Really? I agree that taking it too literally but I'd have thought that most people will quickly come to regard connected notes as being the norm, especially in this style. I think they're simply missing the fact that the middle pedal has no benefit over regular pedalling.

It is not self-evident by any means.  The benefit of middle pedal is that it appears to respect the score.  Which is the same benefit as trying to play it without pedal.  To understand that the notes don't have to be dry requires learning several bits of knowledge.  Starting with the simple idea that you can use the pedal at your own discretion and not only when it is marked in the score.  Then learning some concepts about when that would be a good idea, when to change the pedal, etc.