Question about DP vs Accoustic

[sephethus]

I am currently getting by on a crappy sounding/feeling Yamaha DGX-640.

I have been struggling with the decision on how to upgrade.

My piano teacher has a Schimmel acoustic grand piano.  While the Yamaha DGX-640 has weighted keys, it still doesn't feel anything like the resistance my Piano teacher's grand has, much less the sound.

The advantage of a DP is that my neighbor can't complain about the sound, because I can use headphones.  I can also take it anywhere if it's a stage piano (i.e. to the park or subway) or to a gig one day when I am good enough.  Also the Roland FP-7F which is currently (supposedly) the best digital stage piano out there, is half the price of any upright acoustic.

The advantage of an acoustic is the resistance and feel of the keys, the sound, everything is genuine.  The Yamaha U1 upright has a "practice pedal" which I am skeptical about and unsure of whether my neighbor could hear it.

The Roland FP-7F supposedly has amazing sound, but I am unsure that the feel of the keys, when pressed, is anything close to my piano teacher's acoustic.  Every time I go to a lesson, I feel as if I have to play differently, press harder, which affects the dynamics, and he gets fussy about that.

Does anyone have experience comparing the FP-7F to an acoustic upright or grand?

I'm also considering the RD-700NX.

[indianajo]

I fail to understand the obsession piano students have with buying a new piano, unless they live in Asia or Africa.  Wonderful acoustic  pianos are being consigned to the dump every day in America and Europe.  You can have your pick of upright pianos for free, for the cost of moving.  These are out of fashion because of the styling and the 500 pound weight, but the tinkly sound replicates that of a Beethoven era grand I heard performed on a German radio rebroadcast .  The uprights also have much better pitch stability than a 17th century grand.  At the $40 level are spinet pianos (under 39" tall), which can sound quite good.  I tried out a $40 Mason and Hamlin at a charity resale shop last year, was impressed by the tone. I also practiced a while on a Baldwin spinet in a church fellowship hall before an organ concert last year, and was also impressed by its tone. It was fast enough for Scott Joplin repretoire.     Spinets are not as fast as consoles or grands, but have the extreme portability required of  student housing.  Two people can carry one easily, and tote them on its back in a station wagon or SUV. A spinet would even fit in the trunk of my car with the lid taken off. 
Console pianos of the 39" or 40" tall variety can have faster action than a spinet, and can usually be had for $200 or less except Steinway and Yamaha. 
The only piano I know of that has the heavy touch of a grand piano is the 44" studio Steinway I tried out at the piano store in 1982. I bought a 39" Sohmer because it sounded better than the Steinway and had a lighter touch.  But the churches I have attended have not had a grand piano, not since 1979, and I prefer a light touch since I have very light bones and arm muscles. Bulking up with exercise or hormones is not a useful practice if it is just going to overload your joints.   

[hfmadopter]

I don't think anyone can accurately state that all grand pianos have heavier action than upright pianos. Grand piano actions can be all over the place as well, though generally speaking they will play more accurately than a worn out junkyard upright would be expected to play.

Here comes my entirely biased statement based completely on personal experience !

Something I can state accurately, is that my own grand piano of some odd 30 years of ownership had light action and I weighted it to be somewhat heavier. In trying out lots of digital pianos over the last year, the piano that came closest to the feel of my own grand was the Roland RD-700-NX in a blind store test ( blind being not knowing what to expect and I just had to keep going back to that 700 NX). Sound is a different matter, absolutely no digital piano has the resonance of a 6' grand piano period, not when comparing out of the box digitals to playing a grand piano live. Not at all, as it all has to be fed through speakers with digital. Now that's not saying they don't make terrific sound these days, because they do and it's not saying that recording of acoustic vs digital can't shed better light on the digital, because it can. But if you sit and play an acoustic and especially a good sized grand and then sit and play the digital sitting next to it, there will be a difference. The resonance and spontaneity of the acoustic is in live time and live feeling, it hits the walls and vibrates so, the difference is like kissing a real live woman vs a manikin I suppose ( never kissed a manikin but I can imagine). I can crank my Kawai up till it's ear spitting but it's just plain a bit different and that's that.

That said, I own both. A Kawai MP6 digital and the 6' grand and I love them both, as I never thought I could love digital equally ( for obviously different reasons). I must say though, with all this in mind, I absolutely would own just the digital if I lived in an apartment life style with close neighbors and wasn't planning to move to my own home any time soon. There just is nothing like putting on those head phones for absolute silent playing and good head phones make it sound like the whole room is sounding up ! I use Audio-Technica ATH M45 head phones, very nice, very pleased with the Kawai and these head phones. The Kawai action is very good, it's very slightly heavier than my grand set as I have each set ( four options on the Kawai, not so much for key weight but sound velocity from the keys with unlimited curve settings at that).. It took me two weeks to get the Warm Grand Piano sound and the touch curve to closely match my grand, FWIW. This includes damper release, damper sustain, note decay settings and note release, damper release sounds, as well as EQ and tonal settings. You can tweak till the cows come home with that piano ! I play it either or sometimes with both, the M-Audio studio monitors or the headphones. Today as I sit here typing I believe that I would sooner spend the money you are looking at spending on a Kawai MP10 than on either Roland you mentioned. The MP 10 is a notch above mine and sports wooden key cores. Both the 6 and the 10 already have action built similar to a grand piano action, including the sense of let off, a touch more so than the Roland I might add...

However, all that said, that's me !!!!! You really need to go out and try the pianos out for yourself. Not that it really does a lot of a good in this class digital, because as I stated I spent two weeks on and off with mine and you can't last that long in the stores. But you can quickly get the keys set up close and get a feel for that much. Don't depend on the sound in the store, any pro level keyboard is going to have so much control options for sound you won't come close to getting a true sample in a half hour store visit. You can however, get a sense of construction , weight of the instrument and the feel of the keys. Roland and Kawai are on top of it with upper end Yamaha's next for key feel. Any of the pro grade digitals will feel decent and be built better than the low end boards.

If you are looking to spend money on a piano I understand why you might buy a brand new acoustic vs taking a chance on an old upright. Just the reliability factor alone can be worth while. If you buy used have a tech really check it out. But there are some used grands out and about for a couple of thousand bucks these days too. Obviously not Steinway and generally not the top Kawais even but I've seen some decent older Baldwins around here.. Just saying. Again, in an apartment ? Get a really good digital with nice action from the mid range to top end Kawai or Roland is my thought. The dynamics of the Kawai incdentally? You guessed it, adjustable too.

[sephethus]

Thanks hfmadopter! Your post was incredibly helpful.  I think I will go ahead with the RD-700NX for now until I can move to a rented house or pre WWII apartment with better walls.  At that point I'll get the acoustic, either used or new.  Best of both worlds!

[hfmadopter]

Thanks hfmadopter! Your post was incredibly helpful.  I think I will go ahead with the RD-700NX for now until I can move to a rented house or pre WWII apartment with better walls.  At that point I'll get the acoustic, either used or new.  Best of both worlds!

Obviously I can not tell you if the RD 700NX is most like your teachers piano, only that it is in terms of action, like my own. You really should try one out though. The keys feel really nice on it but I would hate to see you make the purchase without trying it out first or at least have a good return policy. Pianos and how they play are very personal. Any digital I mentioned is nothing like your Yamaha at any rate ( I looked at one of those as well).

No Kawai dealers around your area ? They are worth a try, they sell nothing really junkie in a digital at all, mostly pro level in fact. I bought my MP6 with a 45 day return policy and didn't use it ( the return policy, I use the piano every day)..

[rohade]

My short answer, get the acoustic, it's important.

I've used digital pianos my whole life, then software pianos, now an acoustic, both digital and software pianos are more lenient with the sustain pedalling, you can press it down and you won't get the blurring of an acoustic, to sound good on an acoustic, is harder.

Also, the touch of an acoustic can be easier or harder than an electrical piano, however, if you are talking about a grand, just certain Roland models emulate the escapement mechanism, which you can feel on piannismo on a grand, on uprights you don't have that.

Playing on acoustic first is better, as you learn how to use properly the pedal, how to sound good, then you can play a software piano and you will sound even better.

And if you still get a digital, get a software piano, don't use default or stock sounds so only get it because the touch.

[bronnestam]

I wouldn't say someone is a good car driver if they cannot drive properly unless it is a Ferrari in top condition. When you just have got your driver's license, you are often very sensitive to the feeling of the car and its controls. Later on, with more experience, you can use practically any type of car without stops and jerks ...

The same goes for pianists. Don't get annoyed by the difference between your piano and your teacher's; see it as a good bonus in your education. As a pianist, you should be able to play concert grands as well as plastic digitals as well as squeaky, mistuned old uprights without too many problems. If I were you, I would buy a decent digital piano for home practicing, and then try to find other pianos in different places for occasional practicing.

[silverwoodpianos]

The same goes for pianists. Don't get annoyed by the difference between your piano and your teacher's; see it as a good bonus in your education. As a pianist, you should be able to play concert grands as well as plastic digitals as well as squeaky, mistuned old uprights without too many problems. If I were you, I would buy a decent digital piano for home practicing, and then try to find other pianos in different places for occasional practicing.

 Exactly.This is what separates the pianists from the piano players.

[sephethus]

Thanks guys, this is all great feedback. Unfortunately I have to stick with getting a decent digital like the RD-700NX until I'm living somewhere far from a grumpy neighbor with piano-phobia. By next year I will hopefully have both.

The challenge will be finding acoustics around town that I can actually play occasionally. If only there were practice rooms at places besides universities.  It could be a place full of practice rooms and lots of grand and upright pianos and you could pay for it like a gym membership. I thought about starting up something like that.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks guys, this is all great feedback. Unfortunately I have to stick with getting a decent digital like the RD-700NX until I'm living somewhere far from a grumpy neighbor with piano-phobia. By next year I will hopefully have both.

The challenge will be finding acoustics around town that I can actually play occasionally. If only there were practice rooms at places besides universities.  It could be a place full of practice rooms and lots of grand and upright pianos and you could pay for it like a gym membership. I thought about starting up something like that.

If you get a really good quality digital the action will be good on it. I just tuned my grand Sunday and was playing it a fair amount too and my MP6 action is a bit faster. They are similar in weight or pressure to the keys. The Kawai is set to the second lightest action or velocity really. It can be adjusted two settings more heavy/slower. Kawai and that Roland have let off like a grand piano has. The way I have the Kawai set up it's more dynamic than the grand if the grands top is down, maybe even a touch more with the top up.  I backed off on the dynamics settings from the factory settings. By dynamic I  mean on a scale from 0-10 for lightest touch response to hardest or loudest if you will, the digital has a bit more control as I set it up and it has more to go, I backed it off from factory shipped control. As I stated in my other messages, the real difference has to do  with resonance and tone, as well as over tone ( appearance goes without saying).. I took the longest time to set up tonal values in the digital. But then again I voiced the grand last summer too ! Resonance will never be identical but I'm very pleased non the less.

Don't open that shop you will go broke !! Do buy the digital and enjoy it is my suggestion.

[slobone]

Thanks guys, this is all great feedback. Unfortunately I have to stick with getting a decent digital like the RD-700NX until I'm living somewhere far from a grumpy neighbor with piano-phobia. By next year I will hopefully have both.

The challenge will be finding acoustics around town that I can actually play occasionally. If only there were practice rooms at places besides universities.  It could be a place full of practice rooms and lots of grand and upright pianos and you could pay for it like a gym membership. I thought about starting up something like that.

Sometimes piano dealers have practice rooms they'll let you use for a fee. I think. I've never investigated that, but I saw a report on TV about an airline pilot who's an amateur pianist. Whenever he has a layover away from home, he goes to the local piano dealer and practices.

And anyway, you can always call your local dealer and explain your situation. I'm sure they've been asked the question before.

[bronnestam]

Try the churches!

[sephethus]

Today was the day I got my RD-700NX. I got a great deal at MusiciansFriend.com but had to beg a customer service guy since their 15% discount on anything over $299 didn't apply to Roland for some reason.  So $400 off and I basically paid just over the price of an FP-7F.

Can anyone recommend good PA speakers for the 700NX that would sound as good as my Bose headphones?  Occasionally my neighbor leaves town or my friends come over and I can play for them now and then.

[hfmadopter]

That's great news, exciting !! I bought my Kawai MP6 at Musicians Friend as well, they had the best deal on it with one of their coupons applied.  When you get your piano, read the manual well, I kept mine ( in fact it still is) right with the piano and referenced it for the first couple of weeks of use. The 700NX is more feature intensive than the MP6 I believe, it has synth capability as I recall. It's a very very powerful tool.

For in house use  I suggest studio monitors for speakers ( and if you ask this question in any keyboard forum you will get a similar reply). With the MP6 I went first with an AMP/PA and a lesser powerful one from Roland at that . Fine if you want to listen to the piano in the kitchen while playing it in the livingroom. It would drive you out of the house and probably your neighbor out of town. I had my wife play just a simple scale while I walked around the house, even upstairs it was loud though really also more clear than in the livingroom. Obviously made to project sound, It penetrated walls and floors. Turned down you start to lose accuracy, turned way down it sounded terrible as it isn't meant for that. Studio monitors are more accurate across the volume range, it will sound more like a good studio headphone set ( can't speak for your Bose off hand). However, I believe no speaker system will fully sound just like a good headphone set ( my headphones are just a bit warmer and the monitors slightly more artificial sounding, so people listening hear a nice rendition but mine is a bit better through the headphones). They will be very good though. I picked mine up at a somewhat local Guitar Center, I bougth M-Audio but there are tons out there to choose from. You might want to call Musicians Friend and see what they suggest.

Meanwhile, congrats !

[sephethus]

Awesome! Thanks so much for all your help.

Did you get the AV40's?

[hfmadopter]

Awesome! Thanks so much for all your help.

Did you get the AV40's?

The AV 40,s really are more of a PC type speaker/monitor. I haven't tried those, I'm using the BX series. Look through and read  up on them and also what consumer reports has to say about the BX5A vs BX8a vs AV40 and the alternative brands they list as well. But you really need to try them all out as we all mentioned in the other thread that was running about speakers for digital pianos. That and talk with the folks at Musicians Friend I'd say.

How is the 700NX working for you ?

[sephethus]

Thanks. The BX5's seem to have better reviews on Amazon than the BX8, but some complaints about upper mid range from people recommending the Mackie MR5 MK2's, which had far better reviews on both Amazon and Musician's Friend.  So I got those.

The 700NX is exactly what I needed. It does have an exponentially better feel and sound than my old keyboard.  It will definitely do for now, till I get my acoustic.  It will also be great for when I play in Rittenhouse Square for beer money, once I get that good.  I managed to sell my old one in less than 3 hrs on craigslist for half of what I originally bought it for.

[hfmadopter]

Thanks. The BX5's seem to have better reviews on Amazon than the BX8, but some complaints about upper mid range from people recommending the Mackie MR5 MK2's, which had far better reviews on both Amazon and Musician's Friend.  So I got those.

The 700NX is exactly what I needed. It does have an exponentially better feel and sound than my old keyboard.  It will definitely do for now, till I get my acoustic.  It will also be great for when I play in Rittenhouse Square for beer money, once I get that good.  I managed to sell my old one in less than 3 hrs on craigslist for half of what I originally bought it for.

Congrats on the purchas and the sale !

Armed with speaker info what do you think you will do next ?