Bach suggestions?

[spiano95]

I am playing Bach's Fantasia in C Minor BWV 906 for an exam and it's my first Bach piece.    I'm finding it very difficult at the minute (a couple of weak hand problems and the likes) but apart from that can anyone give me any tips on approaching Bach in general?
Thanks in advance 

[slobone]

That's your first Bach piece? Seems like a strange place to start. Most people start with the inventions or sinfonias. But some general ideas for playing Bach on the piano:

Articulation: Decide what parts you want to play legato, staccato, or in between. Then

Tempo: not usually indicated, so you have to decide what sounds right to you. Then

Fingering: you can't really work out the fingering until you know what the articulation and tempo are going to be. But fingering is crucial to playing any Bach piece with facility. The earlier you figure it out, the better -- take your time. Once you've locked it in, it can be hard to change what your fingers are doing, and maybe it doesn't work at a faster tempo. Then

Phrasing, dynamics, and pedalling: Not going to be as dramatic with Bach as with later composers. But still you have to do something so it doesn't sound robotic. HTH

[ajspiano]

That's your first Bach piece? Seems like a strange place to start. Most people start with the inventions or sinfonias.

  I would've hoped that most people start with Anna Magdalena and then do a few of the easier Wilhelm Friedemann pieces before inventions/sinfonias.

[j_menz]

I would've hoped that most people start with Anna Magdalena and then do a few of the easier Wilhelm Friedemann pieces before inventions/sinfonias.

In general I'd agree, but some people come to Bach later than others.

To OP - this is your first Bach piece, but have you played any other baroque or heavily polyphonic music? (Do you even know what that means, btw?). What you have done in this regard greatly affects what advice you might need/find useful.

[ajspiano]

In general I'd agree, but some people come to Bach later than others.

I had a student a while back who came to me as a relatively cocky "grade 7-8" pianist having done AMEB exams..  invention one dramatically lowered her confidence, and forced a thorough reassessment of what having passed an exam really means...   in retrospect I think she'd have been better off with an easier prelude.

^OP, this isn't in any way aimed at you by the way. As j_menz said we need to know your background to offer better advice.

[kitty on the keys]

This is one of my favorite pieces to play! I found that if i divided the piece into several sections, I could focus on notes, rhythms, trills, fingering, ect.....all that good stuff. Go to You Tube and listen to several performances. Have fun....it's a great piece. Record yourself as you master each section.

Kitty on the Keys

[asuhayda]

Bach is HARD! 

I find that actually focusing on the fingering first helps me to learn Bach pieces quicker (whatever that means, it still seems to take forever).

Unlike most other composers, you need to stay very consistent with your fingering.  If you are switching it up a lot, that's going to add time to your completion.

Articulation does matter in determining what fingering to use, so I'd agree with one of the other posters on this point.  However, I suppose I kind of work those two issues out at the same time.  It's hard to know how to articulate Bach if you've never played anything by him.. So, I'd probably suggest listening to some recordings of Gould, Richter, etc.. to get some ideas.  You'll notice a huge difference in style. 

As you get used to Bach's compositional style and paradigm, things start to make sense a little more, but it'll take some time.

You can always go back and sight read through some of the AMB Notebook.. it's a stripped down set of pieces that might give you some insight into the more complex polyphonic textures of his later works. 

I am always amazed by all the little nuances of Bach's music that I constantly discover while playing.  He was a true genius.

Last thing, consider recording yourself while you play... it will help you to realize bits and pieces of the texturing that you can bring out (or lay off).

Good Luck and congratulations on discovering Bach.  Proper musicians challenge the Bach repertoire.

[okanaganmusician]

This may seem unconventional for someone just beginning on Bach, but...

...go play a harpsichord.  Find access to one and just play around for a few minutes on it - if you have part of the piece prepared try that.

It completely opens up your mind to the totally different world that is Baroque keyboard music and will get you thinking about articulations, touch and frankly just how to get the right sound out of a piano.

As for actual practice tips, fingering is HUGE.  It will pretty much make or break you from the start; if you choose poor fingerings the piece will always be an uphill battle.

[slobone]

Bach is HARD! 

I find that actually focusing on the fingering first helps me to learn Bach pieces quicker (whatever that means, it still seems to take forever).

Unlike most other composers, you need to stay very consistent with your fingering.  If you are switching it up a lot, that's going to add time to your completion.

Articulation does matter in determining what fingering to use, so I'd agree with one of the other posters on this point.  However, I suppose I kind of work those two issues out at the same time.  It's hard to know how to articulate Bach if you've never played anything by him.. So, I'd probably suggest listening to some recordings of Gould, Richter, etc.. to get some ideas.  You'll notice a huge difference in style. 

As you get used to Bach's compositional style and paradigm, things start to make sense a little more, but it'll take some time.

You can always go back and sight read through some of the AMB Notebook.. it's a stripped down set of pieces that might give you some insight into the more complex polyphonic textures of his later works. 

I am always amazed by all the little nuances of Bach's music that I constantly discover while playing.  He was a true genius.

Last thing, consider recording yourself while you play... it will help you to realize bits and pieces of the texturing that you can bring out (or lay off).

Good Luck and congratulations on discovering Bach.  Proper musicians challenge the Bach repertoire.

Yes, I should revise what I said. In reality I work on note learning, fingering and articulation at the same time. Once I feel fairly confident in the notes, I start increasing the tempo. At that point I sometimes need to revise the fingering. It's an ongoing process.

And of course it's essential to learn to play polyphonically. That will also help you with other composers, which is one of the reasons why piano students have always spent a lot of time on Bach. 

[spiano95]

Hello again all,
Thanks v much for all the suggestions    I've taken a lot on board for working on it today. To j_menz and slobone - yes I am aware of the style of writing and terms like baroque and polyphonic but I haven't played anything of this sort before, to be honest I usually shy away from it sticking to what I know best - the later end of the scale, Debussy and his contemporaries being my favourites. So whatever advice from a baroque beginner view would be helpful 

[j_menz]

For the Fantasia, you need to identify the voices. There are generally two of them, but occassionaly a third pops up. Play the voices seperately, so you knaow what you want to do with them, and then put them together.

I'd seriously recommend you have a look at the first few of the 2 part inventions; you don't need to perfect them, just get a broader idea of how to deal with multiple voices.

I take it you're not doing the fugue.

This piece was originally for organ, though there is no pedal part. I also take it you are doing the original, not the Busoni transcription (which would be overly ambitious without a much greater grounding in polyphonic writing).

[slobone]

Also, my preference on Bach is to do a lot of repetitions, especially of the running passages. Start slowly and perfect each passage at a slow tempo, then gradually move the metronome up.

This is especially important where you have crossed hands. You should be able to play the hand that doesn't cross as quickly and evenly as a C major scale, so you can play it pretty much automatically. Then you can focus on the hand that's jumping around.

[jj5594]

Bach was from the Baroque period and as previously stated it isn't usually indicated on his pieces. I usually play his pieces quite straight forward with a regular rhythm. Listen to interpretations online. Glenn Gould for example, his repetoire is full of bach try him

[g_s_223]

Practise (HS then HT) without pedal. This will clearly show what is under control and what is not.

Then, pedalling may be integrated in a tasteful way.

[piano6888]

In addition to all the other great suggestions from others, I will add that you could try intricate fingerings and also work from a slower than usual tempo (not too slow because you don't want to lose the rhythm) to get comfortable with the correct fingerings.  Then after you can play the piece correctly and clearly, I would up the tempo until it is at standard tempo/proper tempo. Hope this helps

[pianoplunker]

I am playing Bach's Fantasia in C Minor BWV 906 for an exam and it's my first Bach piece.    I'm finding it very difficult at the minute (a couple of weak hand problems and the likes) but apart from that can anyone give me any tips on approaching Bach in general?
Thanks in advance 

Although Bach does not indicate dynamics, the phrasing is the dynamics. The phrasing is what makes the music alive.

[justharmony]

Although Bach does not indicate dynamics, the phrasing is the dynamics. The phrasing is what makes the music alive.

Nothing personal, but I couldn't disagree more.  At least, not if you want to play Bach the way BACH conceived of the music.  If you want to play Bach in a romanticized style, then follow all the great advice here for how to do so.

If you want to think about an alternative view, however, consider the instruments for which Bach wrote.  Organ.  Harpsichord.  Some clavichord, perhaps, but NOT fortepiano.  Organ and harpsichord have limited ability for dynamic "expression" and no ability to intricately shape a phrase dynamically.  That may be what makes the music sound "alive" to us nowadays, but that is NOT what made the music "alive" to Bach, unless you just accept that Bach was really not that passionate about his music or the instruments for which he wrote. I don't think that.

Consider the "puzzle" of how Bach brought out various voices largely withOUT the use of iintricate dynamics (and without a pedal, too, I might add).  Consider how he would have emphasized certain notes, beats, phrases.  Basically, the instruments required a whole different "language" than that which we are used to using today, where dynamic phrasing is the way WE know how to make music expressive.

This is a language of slightly altered rhythms, of notes and silences, of touch and of trills not as frills but as ways to accent certain notes, or to prolong them when there was no pedal to do so, for example. 
AGain, think about the INSTRUMENTS themselves, what they can and can't do, what they do and don't do well, and start from there. 

I would also get a good book on baroque interpretation and playing (one intended for harpsichord would be good), if your teacher does not understand earlier musical "language"  (no criticism here, btw, just recognizing that a lot of people aren't aware and don't understand). 

OF course, all this is a matter of choice- yours.  IF you like how Bach sounds as a romanticized piece on the modern piano, go for it.   Really.  But if you're curious to explore something a little closer to what he intended, then consider some alternatives. 



JH

[brogers70]

Nothing personal, but I couldn't disagree more.  At least, not if you want to play Bach the way BACH conceived of the music.  If you want to play Bach in a romanticized style, then follow all the great advice here for how to do so.

If you want to think about an alternative view, however, consider the instruments for which Bach wrote.  Organ.  Harpsichord.  Some clavichord, perhaps, but NOT fortepiano.  Organ and harpsichord have limited ability for dynamic "expression" and no ability to intricately shape a phrase dynamically.  That may be what makes the music sound "alive" to us nowadays, but that is NOT what made the music "alive" to Bach, unless you just accept that Bach was really not that passionate about his music or the instruments for which he wrote. I don't think that.

While it's certainly possible to play Bach too romantically, it's worth remembering that the great majority of what Bach wrote was vocal music, in which it is perfectly possible to shape phrases dynamically. I have no way of knowing, of course, but I rather doubt that Bach considered the inability to shape phrases dynamically on a harpsichord a positive virtue. One can create the illusion of dynamic shaping on a harpsichord by ornamentation, subtle changes in articulation, changes in textural density, and all that is wonderful, but I doubt Bach would have scorned the dynamic flexibility of a modern piano any more than he did that of the human voice or the violin.

[justharmony]

While it's certainly possible to play Bach too romantically, it's worth remembering that the great majority of what Bach wrote was vocal music, in which it is perfectly possible to shape phrases dynamically. I have no way of knowing, of course, but I rather doubt that Bach considered the inability to shape phrases dynamically on a harpsichord a positive virtue. One can create the illusion of dynamic shaping on a harpsichord by ornamentation, subtle changes in articulation, changes in textural density, and all that is wonderful, but I doubt Bach would have scorned the dynamic flexibility of a modern piano any more than he did that of the human voice or the violin.

Fair points to ponder, certainly.  I think, though, that even though Bach was a paid composer (paid servant?) that he still wrote for instruments that he not only knew, but also happened to like/love - not those that he saw as limited or inadequate in some way.  

I mean, if you're a composer that doesn't like tuba, you tend not to write a tuba concerto, right?  

I can't say what Bach would think of the modern piano, or the way his music is played today.  I think it's worth being aware, though, that the modern piano was not anything like the instruments for which he actually did write his music.  I also think it's worth being aware that the musical "language" in the baroque period, and before, was notably different than that with which we are most familiar today - and that this language was not necessary "inferior" to that which we are so used to and like today - it was just very DIFFERENT.  

If we grow up learning and speaking English we tend to think that Russian, say, is maybe more difficult to learn, and to understand, and maybe we even think it is a "harsh" language, or whatever. If we learn it, we will speak with an accent that favors our native tongue.  That doesn't mean Russian is an inferior language - just different, and not what we are used to.

By the same token, the modern piano with its equal temperament and the way we tend to play it in a more romantic fashion than anything else is what we are used to, and therefore what we tend to like.  Doesn't meant that the language of earlier music or instruments is inferior - just different.  

If someone from 1650 lept into the future and was faced with a modern piano who knows what they'd think, but I'd imagine they'd find the instrument foreign and less pleasing than what THEY know - instruments like harsichord with UNequal temperament that can be heard like laser beams on this instrument (part of this earlier "language", in my opinion).  

To each his own, of course, but I, personally, find enlightenment in awareness of earlier styles, language, tuning, and most of all - instruments.  I do not find such things inadequate in any way - just different - and incredibly beautiful - again, in their own way.  The modern piano is hardly a perfect instrument.  What it gains in one place, it loses in another place.  A lot of people aren't aware of these 'losses'.    

For what it's worth.  

JH

[slobone]

If you're playing Bach on a piano, you're already being inauthentic, so I think it's kind of silly to debate what he would have wanted you to do. And there's no point trying to play the piano like a harpsichord, it just doesn't work. Piano requires a certain minimum of dynamic shading to sound musical.

That said, I also don't especially like recordings that take the phrasing and dynamics to romantic extremes. But you can certainly do a lot with articulation, and that's not totally inauthentic. Bach himself used markings to indicate legato and staccato, although not very often. The modern style of playing Bach on the piano (ever since Gould) is to freely use different kinds of articulation for expressive effect.

[cometear]

I would start by getting his first two part invention under your belt than try a few others. Than maybe a Sinfonia (three part invention) and see how it goes. Get with the style of his music than start something more advanced. This is not about your level of experience but the fact that is your first Bach piece. Good luck!