scherzo 1 chopin

[chopin2015]

So, who gives the best performance of this? Can someone find a performance of it where the middle section is the bomb? I am very curious to hear how the trills are usually executed. Hmmmm!

[p2u_]

So, who gives the best performance of this? Can someone find a performance of it where the middle section is the bomb? I am very curious to hear how the trills are usually executed. Hmmmm!

My favorite in all respects is Sviatoslav Richter's version:

Paul

[chopin2015]

My favorite in all respects is Sviatoslav Richter's version:

Paul

Man, idk how they play the melody and the trills with such rubato over the left hand! I want that!

[p2u_]

Man, idk how they play the melody and the trills with such rubato over the left hand! I want that!

What I'm going to say is probably not methodologically correct, but it may help you out.

Good fingering is a help, of course. Simply stop thinking of them as "trills" (= something you have to do fast and stuff). Those embellishments are only to intensify the melody. At the instrument, listen to how "naked" the Polish Christmas song actually sounds without them. Sing along with Richter until you've got the melody in your head, simply by imitation.

At the instrument, think as a conductor, not as a pianist. The left hand keeps the "hearbeat", the "pulse" whatever happens, and you simply fill in the melody with your right hand without counting too much, merely by ear. First one phrase, then another one etc. until you get the feel of it...

Paul

[chopin2015]

What I'm going to say is probably not methodologically correct, but it may help you out.

Good fingering is a help, of course. Simply stop thinking of them as "trills" (= something you have to do fast and stuff). Those embellishments are only to intensify the melody. At the instrument, listen to how "naked" the Polish Christmas song actually sounds without them. Sing along with Richter until you've got the melody in your head, simply by imitation.

At the instrument, think as a conductor, not as a pianist. The left hand keeps the "hearbeat", the "pulse" whatever happens, and you simply fill in the melody with your right hand without counting too much, merely by ear. First one phrase, then another one etc. until you get the feel of it...

Paul

Cool! Ive heard some beautiful ways to play it, but am looking for the right way for me to play it, really. The fingering suggestion is good. I always have to work on fingerings! Arggg....what a quest, piano is.

[ajspiano]

I might add just briefly to Paul's comments here.

When I've worked on this kind of thing, not necessarily trills but just freedom in time on a melody over  something more consistent it went a bit like this. And I say this as a generalisation, not meaning to be specific to problems found in the scherzo, though it may be applicable as far as developing the required coordination (you'll just have to try and see what you think).

Basically, the hands had been trained to play in sync extensively - and this was a problem, there was an interdependence there, so even if I had a clear sound image, physically I reverted to being more synchronised and in time. So I tried to counteract this on a really basic level.

I played my LH (for example) as some simple repetitive arpeggio type figure or something, and then proceeded to play a single note against it in my RH deliberately out of time.. Not really following any known rhythmic effect or anything (no calculated poly-rhythm say..) just out of time. Then I'd pick another spot for the RH that was out of time and try and hit that..  and continue in this fashion until I was able to hit melody notes randomly in space without an impact on the LH..  then I'd work on hitting sequences of notes with off timing and so on..

[chopin2015]

I see! I practice polys to where I would sound the shorter rhythm first(and only once) then the other with the alternate hand(once)then count the longer rhythm in the pulse that is equal to the short rhythm, and play the short rhythm at the same time. Or the other way around play longer pulse, play shorter rhythm fast over it...

Here is my attemo at collecting thoughts...
 
 What i like about the particular scherzo section is particular. See avdeeva play op 27 no 2. She does the left hand push pull effect, i think. But there is very slight amount in this section, maybe because it is a slower tempo. The left hand is not all the same(rhythmically) but you can hear it as a murmur, continuous. The melody....im trying to describe it and i am still finding it difficult. It's a dark polish fairy tale. The turns and trills, my teacher showed me how to do them, but richter does a turn and a trill in an improv type way, less generic. I like that sound and think it fits in well with the fairy tale idea, hehe. I will have to spend some time listening and working on tempo, it seems.

[ajspiano]

The turns and trills, my teacher showed me how to do them, but richter does a turn and a trill in an improv type way, less generic.

Perhaps try to think of them not as being a turn, hmmm  awkward to describe.. What I mean is, think of them really as the note that the turn is on. Not being a turn. Know the central melody note, and embellish/ornament it rather than play a turn as it its a set series of notes at that point.

Beyond that, which you probably know already anyway.. consider the idea of lingering a little on different notes within a turn? Its not a rapid smattering of notes, explore different dynamic variations within the turn.

[ajspiano]

scratch that.

Go play a scale.

Listen intently to, and intend musically every note, at a very casual pace. Then practice turns on every single note of your scale..

CdcbC... Dedcd.. etc. take your time, as if you're improvising it.

Then take a melody you know, like a bit of some composers romantic but not too difficult work.. and for funnsies - Do turns  ALL through it..  every second note or something.

[chopin2015]

 I will, i was told that i dont have to play the turn right away, just play the note, for simple practice. I like the idea of the dynamics of the turn. That is very detailed thinking. My teacher has specific ways of doing the grace notes(i know theyre before the beat if before the melody note) and grace note/ arpeggio chord combo like in ballade no 2/chopin problems
But i do not find that as musically fulfilling, however, it is practical first step to understanding the idea.

Oh man, and today I was playing this piece for my teacher, and she said I was brining out the melody fine, but not all the way. See fingerings, not legato enough...wierd pinky skip is inconvenient, stops flow. Lol thats crazy. The bach fugue part is the same way. She said she felt the legato missing. Some people need constant contact and flow of energy, they can feel easily when something is wrong. Legato is difficult, though. It very much can be. Dynamics are also hard to sense at the piano. Hmmmmm.

But yes, fingerings, and thank you for teaching me about ornaments, ajspiano.

[chopin2015]

scratch that.

Go play a scale.

Ok, mom
Lol, jk


Youre right though. Scales can't do that much harm. I will try that. In the key of B and the like. Rock and roll!

[ajspiano]

Ok, mom
Lol, jk


Youre right though. Scales can't do that much harm. I will try that. In the key of B and the like. Rock and roll!

lol, - practicing ornments on each note of a scale will get you to repeat your ornament a lot, and put you through a range of different physical configurations of the keys, and different fingerings..   and it will develop your sense of the turn being something that operates around a given note, rather than being a series of given notes..

Its just a bit more effective initially for developing the required skill than only practicing exactly whats in the score.

[chopin2015]

lol, - practicing ornments on each note of a scale will get you to repeat your ornament a lot, and put you through a range of different physical configurations of the keys, and different fingerings..   and it will develop your sense of the turn being something that operates around a given note, rather than being a series of given notes..

Its just a bit more effective initially for developing the required skill than only practicing exactly whats in the score.

 Awesome! that was great advice! I understand now. Yeas, I definitely want to be consistent with ornaments. Boy, it's like trills with 3/4 and 4/5 fingers. Or 2334... I love Beethoven.

 My wrists are killing me today. Thanks for your time. I will see what I can come up with soon. I've worked on this piece since last year now. It's always a bummer trying to capture the piece in it's full potential. Lol