Which concerto would be better to start with?

[davidjosepha]

Hey, I'm back (to ask the most hated type of question on this forum).

I've never played a piano concerto before, but I'm thinking about learning just the first movement to either Rachmaninoff's 1st or 2nd, just for fun, not for a competition or to perform in the near future or anything.

If I were to only learn the first movement and wouldn't have to worry at this point about coordinating with an orchestra, would his first or second be a better option?

PS: An update for people who sorta knew me here before my extended leave of absense. I just finished (for the time being) learning Janacek's 1.X.1905 sonata and performed it in a student recital. Was very fun, and I think I'm finally starting to get over my fear of playing in front of people. Every performance gets easier, and I performed it four or five times in front of various groups of people.

[j_menz]

Welcome back. Good to see the Janacek hasn't killed you. 

If you haven't tried a concerto before, why start with Rachmaninoff? Not a question of difficulty, just that Rach tends to weave the orchestra and the piano together so integrally that they are probably the least satisfying to play in the absence of one (or some sort of simulcrum).

If you've done a few, and can more or less fill in the blanks in your head that's probably fine, but as a starter that's going to be the real challenge.

[ajspiano]

I don't think I should be attempting to throw out much concrete advice on concerto repertoire..  however I agree with j_menz.. (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this) ...but maybe one of the less intimidating mozart concerti first?

not that I expect you'll listen to that suggestion


Good to see you back by the way.

[davidjosepha]

Welcome back. Good to see the Janacek hasn't killed you. 

It actually didn't end up being as difficult as I anticipated! There are obviously some tricky parts, but the only places that I had to just drill were the left hand part in the first movement with the e-flat minor chord bouncing down to the e-flat then back to the triad, and the part in the second movement just before the recapitulation with the B-flat 7 bouncing down to the B-flat, but because both those keys are black (and have two white keys to their right), it wasn't as bad as I expected. Still quite difficult, though.

If you haven't tried a concerto before, why start with Rachmaninoff? Not a question of difficulty, just that Rach tends to weave the orchestra and the piano together so integrally that they are probably the least satisfying to play in the absence of one (or some sort of simulcrum).

Ah, that's something I hadn't thought of, good point. I'll take that under advisement

I don't think I should be attempting to throw out much concrete advice on concerto repertoire..  however I agree with j_menz.. (and I'm sure you don't want to hear this) ...but maybe one of the less intimidating mozart concerti first?

I would consider that, but given that I'm not going to be performing with an orchestra, how much different would learning a Mozart concerto be to just playing a Mozart sonata (which I've played plenty of)?

not that I expect you'll listen to that suggestion


Good to see you back by the way.

It's something I'll keep in mind, of course, since I value both your opinions. A classical concerto is very different from a romantic concerto though--is there any romantic concerto that is less intimidating and is not the Grieg concerto (for hopefully obvious reasons)?

Good to be back. I'm going to try to be more active--my problem since getting to college is that I could either use my limited free time *reading* about piano and piano repertoire, or I could spend it *playing* piano...for the most part, I chose playing. I'm anticipating having more free time for a while though, so I'll do my best to be on here.

[ajspiano]

I don't really have an extensive enough knowledge of concerto repertoire to recommend specifically like a teacher would - I'm not there yet.

I think that the point to be aware of is that the difference is the orchestra. Even if you're not going to play with the orchestra that doesn't make an orchestral part irrelevant. Its like playing contrapuntal works, its a voice. You process the orchestral part as if with intention as well as the piano part..  which is another level of thinking that you're not dealing with before learning a concerto...   you know, focus on and awareness of something you are not actually doing while you're doing something else.

If you just like the piano part by itself then sure no harm, but if you really want to play concertos well then its a part of the learning process that is probably best not left till later, and should be approached in a logical way that promotes good learning. So an easier classical concerto is probably a better starting point? In the same way that you probably wouldnt generally advise diving into advanced romantic solo repertoire without the proper baroque and classical ground work.

That said, I'm absolutely a culprit when it comes to diving into things early. Its doable and I take it on willingly myself, but I don't recommend it other people because I know whats down that road - and its a hard slog

[chopin2015]

Beethoven 3rd?

[j_menz]

How much different would learning a Mozart concerto be to just playing a Mozart sonata (which I've played plenty of)?

That means you should be reasonably able to fully understand what's different.  And those differences are important.

Whenever I start off with a new composer or genre or whatever, I try and find the easiest pieces I can find, and the ones that are most like what I'm familiar with. In most cases that means I can come up to speed reasonably quickly (and you don't need to perfect it, just understand it and be able to make a reasonable stab at it) and I can concentrate on what's different/unique.

If you start with something too far from where you are, there are too many differences all at once; and with the Rach concerti or other majorlty challenging ones there's way to much in the way of technical difficulty to overcome at the same time.

A case of keep it simple until you know where you're going.

[thalbergmad]

Beethoven 3rd?

Well, it's not Grieg.

Thal

[chopin2015]

Well, it's not Grieg.

Thal

That would be nice!

[thalbergmad]

Not Grieg is nice.

Not Schumann even better.

Thal

[chopin2015]

Not Grieg is nice.

Not Schumann even better.

Thal

Haha, you do not prefer to listen to these?

[thalbergmad]

I would rather hurl myself into a meat grinder than listen to those two again.

Thal

[chopin2015]

*Sits at piano and hides meat grinder*

Thats funny. I dont like Schumann that much either. Unless Richter plays it.

[thalbergmad]

Only the greatest of pianists can squeeze any quality out of the restrained and rigid works of Schumann and then perhaps only the earlier works.

Schumann's piano concerto is too bland and devoid of interest to be turned into music. One cannot polish a turd.

Thal

[j_menz]

@ david - if you're looking for some shorter, slightly Rachmaninovian type works to get you used to the concerto format here are a few :

Charles Williams - "The Dream of Olwen"

Charles Williams (born Isaac Cozerbreit on 8 May 1893 in London, died 7 September 1978 in Findon Valley, Worthing, West Sussex, England) was a British composer and conductor, contributing music to over 50 films. While his career ran from 1934 through 1968, much of his work came to the big screen as stock music and was therefore uncredited.

Hubert Bath - "Cornish Rhapsody"

Hubert Charles Bath (6 November 1883, Barnstaple, Devon - 24 April 1945, Harefield) was a British film composer and music director, usually credited without his middle name. His credits include Tudor Rose (1936), A Yank at Oxford (1938) and Millions Like Us (1943). His son John Bath (1915-2004) was also a film composer.

Bath's composition Out of the Blue has been used as the theme music of Sports Report since the programme started in 1948. Also well-known is his Cornish Rhapsody, written for, and essential to the plot of, the 1944 film Love Story.

Richar Addinsell - "Warsaw Concerto"

This comes from the British Wartime Film "Dangerous Moonlight" and starred Anton Walbrook as a Polish Royal Air Force Fighter pilot, Composer and Pianist and was composed by Richard Addinsell. It was hugely popular at the time, but not always appreciated - Spike Millingan in his memoirs recalls that he and his ilk never referred to it as anything other than "the bloody awful Warsaw concerto".

[rachmaninoff_forever]

You're back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[davidjosepha]

Hey, j_menz, thanks for the other suggestions! I'm familiar with the Warsaw concerto and like it, and I also really liked "The Dream of Olwen". Any comments on how they compare in difficulty (ignoring length) to Rach's 1st/2nd?

You're back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's 3 s and 2 s so i'll take that as a net positive.

[j_menz]

Any comments on how they compare in difficulty (ignoring length) to Rach's 1st/2nd?

Ahem!!!! 

Seriously though. I haven't played the Dream of Olwen. The other two have piano solo versions, and that's the version I have played.  IMO, they're rather easier than Rach, but by no means trivial. I should also note I haven't even looked at the Rach 1, so the previous is somewhat hearsay. 

As an aside, you should be able to get the scores through interlibrary loan.

[outin]

PS: An update for people who sorta knew me here before my extended leave of absense. I just finished (for the time being) learning Janacek's 1.X.1905 sonata and performed it in a student recital. Was very fun, and I think I'm finally starting to get over my fear of playing in front of people. Every performance gets easier, and I performed it four or five times in front of various groups of people.

That's great...time well spent although you have been missed...
Did you finish reading through all your stuff also? 

[davidjosepha]

That's great...time well spent although you have been missed...
Did you finish reading through all your stuff also? 

Yes, very fun and rewarding!

And no, although I've been chugging away at it. Less so now than I was, but the list is getting smaller (though not too much!)

Seriously though. I haven't played the Dream of Olwen. The other two have piano solo versions, and that's the version I have played.  IMO, they're rather easier than Rach, but by no means trivial. I should also note I haven't even looked at the Rach 1, so the previous is somewhat hearsay. 

As an aside, you should be able to get the scores through interlibrary loan.

Sounds good! Thanks for the suggestions. There's no solo piano version of Dream of Olwen then? Unfortunate. I'll try to see if my school has it in its music library (probably not), otherwise there's a school with a quite good music program just across town that we share things with. I'm assuming it's not public domain yet due to how recent it is?

[dima_76557]

There's no solo piano version of Dream of Olwen then?

This exist. For a sample here: https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title/Dream-of-Olwen/1360983
SMP level 8/9
https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/help/level-guidelines
Here (not very good) recording for solo:

[pianist1976]

My first concerto was Beethoven's 3rd, Mozart's 16 and 20 were my second ones and my third one was Rach 2. I think Beethoven's 3rd its a nice piece to start familiarizing with the concerto form.

[pianoboy91]

The first concerto that I learned was the first mvt. of the Schumann. That one is kind of difficult at times but can be very fulfilling. Another that I have performed in it's entirety is the Saint-Seans 4th in C minor. That one is an excellent concerto for voicing and for some tricky technical "exercises". It is pretty compact also.

I would suggest either of these two.

I have not had much experience performing or studying any others as of yet so I would be unqualified to give such advice.  Have fun!!

[louispodesta]

i am currently polishing up the Schumann and also the Mozart A Major K.488.  It seems like it has taken me forever to get to this point, and it has.

Concerto repertoire has to be learned in a step-wise fashion, just like solo pieces.  That is why in the 19th century virtually eveyone started off with the Beethoven 2nd, and then moved on to the 3rd.

If you are going to learn the notes for concertos, it should be for the special musical experience that ensemble playing like this offers.  There are a lot of community orchestras out there who can play the early Beethoven Concerto's at the drop of a hat.

However, the Rachmaninoff 2nd, which I am now memorizing, is a different matter.   It is a ton of notes, and in order to do it justice, you are going to have to put other things aside.

Learn the Beethoven, and then play it with your teacher in concert.  If you get off to it, and I hope you do, then play them with orchestra.   The entire process will prepare you, and then some, for the Rach 2, and also the other larger concerto repertoire works.

[canada100]

Always learn the WHOLE CONCERTO! Not a single movement must be missed!


What repertoire are you working on now? Rachmaninoff is not a starting concerto!