I am soo dead

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Apparently I have an audition this week, and I am soooooooooo unprepared!!!

How would you go about fingering the right hand?

I'm missing too many notes.

[j_menz]

To preserve the staccatto, I'd use 1 or 2 on the bottom note of each. 1 if it's white, 2 if it's black. Top note is whatever falls most naturally over the note required. 

I assume you've listened to recordings and know the pace you need to go.

[austinarg]

I didn't know you could be more or less dead.

[j_menz]

I didn't know you could be more or less dead.

Hollywood says you can, so it must be true.

[outin]

Hollywood says you can, so it must be true.

And I thought I had seen all the great movie classics...obviously not, this masterpiece is completely unknown to me...

[nyiregyhazi]

To preserve the staccatto, I'd use 1 or 2 on the bottom note of each. 1 if it's white, 2 if it's black. Top note is whatever falls most naturally over the note required. 

I assume you've listened to recordings and know the pace you need to go.

I think would probably sound a little heavy handed, with so many jumps between positions. I'd just do as much as possible to fit at least two different chords into every hand position. From there, the details find themselves.

[chopin2015]

3 and 5 on the higher thirds, 1 and 2 on the lower ones

[chopin2015]

Can you find a pdf version? id write them up for you today.

[j_menz]

I think would probably sound a little heavy handed, with so many jumps between positions. I'd just do as much as possible to fit at least two different chords into every hand position. From there, the details find themselves.

It shouldn't. The thumb/index are used to base the fingering on, not the playing, which should take it's lead from the top note.

[chopin2015]

Use 2 and 5 on the bigger intervals and 1 and 3 going back to 3rds,

[nyiregyhazi]

It shouldn't. The thumb/index are used to base the fingering on, not the playing, which should take it's lead from the top note.

The problem is that the formula you suggest demands a significantly big movement before every new chord. That will make it very hard to avoid excessive accentuating. Stylistically, it's clearly light and gentle- not virtuosic by nature. By conceiving either two or three (different) chords per position, with as few movements as possible, it's much easier to maintain appropriate musical lightness. There's no justification for slinging the whole arm over each time unless a punchy and energetic drive is wanted. The first significant position shift that I'd employ wouldn't come until the end of the 2nd group of 6. At this point, I'd make two groups of two chords each, to finish the bar.It's simple and straightforward when you make mental and physical groups that keep shifting the bare minimum. To throw the arm around between position after position where there's no physical necessity would be both more difficult technically and more difficult to control musically.

PS the secret is to ask yourself what fingering you would take if each chord was only played once and if it were legato. Most of it takes minimal thought if you view it that way. Then apply the same fingering. Just because it's not legato, it doesn't mean that the same fingering that would be used for legato suddenly goes out the window.

[j_menz]

The problem is that the formula you suggest demands a significantly big movement before every new chord. That will make it very hard to avoid excessive accentuating. Stylistically, it's clearly light and gentle- not virtuosic by nature. By conceiving either two or three chords per position, with as few movements as possible, it's much easier to maintain appropriate musical lightness. There's no justification for slinging the whole arm over each time unless a punchy and energetic drive is wanted. The first significant position shift that I'd employ wouldn't come until the end of the 2nd group of 6. At this point, I'd make two groups of two chords each. It's simple and straightforward when you make mental and physical groups that keep shifting the bare minimum. To throw the arm around between position after position where there's no physical necessity would be both more difficult technically and more difficult to control musically.

PS the secret is to ask yourself what fingering you would take if each chord was only played once and if it were legato. Most of it takes minimal thought if you view it that way. Then apply the same fingering.

I think your playing deeper into the keys than me.  I don't find the sideways movements significant at all and, because I'm closer to the front of the keys I'm more concerned about avoiding having to twist to get into position - that would cause me more problems.

One of the reasons fingering is often quite a personal thing, I guess, is that some movements come easier and some come harder and that varies from individual to individual..

EDIT: I should also add that the original orchestration has those staccatos as bowed, not pizzicato, so it's not too crisp a staccato - closer to detache IMO.

[nyiregyhazi]

I think your playing deeper into the keys than me.  I don't find the sideways movements significant at all and, because I'm closer to the front of the keys I'm more concerned about avoiding having to twist to get into position - that would cause me more problems.

One of the reasons fingering is often quite a personal thing, I guess, is that some movements come easier and some come harder and that varies from individual to individual..

EDIT: I should also add that the original orchestration has those staccatos as bowed, not pizzicato, so it's not too crisp a staccato - closer to detache IMO.

It's not technically impossible, but throwing the arm to the side so often almost inevitably equates to it plummeting down with more force, at least some of the time. I'd actually be stunned to see a top professional accompanist making so many changes of position. the easiest way to get the right sound is simple finger action from a place of readiness- not by having thrown your arm into place at the last moment on each note. Unnecessary changes of position are very rarely employed in such writing except to help make accents. That's exactly what you don't want here. Sorry to be blunt, but I'd see constant position shifts as being an amateurish fingering, rather than anything musically appropriate to the passage.

[j_menz]

throwing the arm to the side so often almost inevitably equates to it plummeting down with more force, at least some of the time. I'd actually be stunned to see a top professional accompanist making so many changes of position.

We clearly perceive what's happening differently. I don't see anything like "throwing the arm to the side", I see a gentle and slight movement; perfectly easy, natural and controlled. A gently moving "place of readiness", if you will.

[chopin2015]

I win

[birba]

This aria is not difficult at all!  It doesn't go fast, you know.  It's very soft and light.  Just imagine you're accompanying valentina...

[ppianista]

A gently moving "place of readiness", if you will.

That's a wonderful way to express what's happening.

[nyiregyhazi]

We clearly perceive what's happening differently. I don't see anything like "throwing the arm to the side", I see a gentle and slight movement; perfectly easy, natural and controlled. A gently moving "place of readiness", if you will.

Would you use the same language to speak of the motions involved in playing a staccato melody with one finger? Your fingering is a direct equivalent most of the time. Occam's razor applies here. Unless there is a specific musical advantage to making quite so many shifts it is easier both musically and technically not to make them but to instead cover many notes in a position. Shifting position needlessly only creates work and danger. that's why we don't play staccato melodies with one finger (aside from a stunt by libetta on youtube). I sight read this passage with no problems because I was preparing many notes in every position. If you have to change every time, you are taking technical gambles with no musical advantage. The faintest rush of blood will wreak havoc and it will take huge willpower merely to to achieve what would be easy from a practically suitable fingering. There's no way I'd prescribe a fingering that makes for both musical and technical hazards, to someone who is worrying about the passage. The concepts of legato fingering apply equally to finding a safe and easy fingering for staccato (unless the composer wants a particularly driving rhythmic energy, that is served by more separate arm movements).

[thalbergmad]

I am amazed that this has turned into another technique argument thread.

Thal

[hardy_practice]

I am amazed that this has turned into another technique argument thread.

Thal

I'm not.  Some poster(s) happily argue the hind legs off a donkey for the sake of their own self-aggrandizement.

[nyiregyhazi]

I am amazed that this has turned into another technique argument thread.

Thal

The poster said he's missing notes. If he takes advice that suggests finding brand new hand positions for almost every new note (rather than grouping into bigger chunks), he'll be in big trouble. I don't even view this as a  technique issue - but an issue of applying common sense fingerings to keep things simple, rather than to force yourself into constant physical adjustments that serve no direct musical function. The more notes you have comfortably under your fingers (rather than a significant arm adjustment away from being so) the easier it is to play. As I said, there's good reason why we don't typically play a staccato melody with one finger. Too many adjustments is that reason.

[austinarg]

This aria is not difficult at all!  It doesn't go fast, you know.  It's very soft and light.  Just imagine you're accompanying valentina...

That would only get him more nervous than he already is.

[chopin2015]

Ps

Its ok to miss notes as long as you still keep a steady tempo. Maybe learn the left hand really well and try not to miss the notes in the left hand, and the right hand is really just embellishment.

[slobone]

It may be marked Largo, but those 16th notes do NOT go slowly. And it has to be a very light staccato, which I for one think is much harder. Listen to this recording:

[lelle]

Do you have to play it in tempo? I would probably use something like this:

[pianoman53]

The poster said he's missing notes. If he takes advice that suggests finding brand new hand positions for almost every new note (rather than grouping into bigger chunks), he'll be in big trouble. I don't even view this as a  technique issue - but an issue of applying common sense fingerings to keep things simple, rather than to force yourself into constant physical adjustments that serve no direct musical function. The more notes you have comfortably under your fingers (rather than a significant arm adjustment away from being so) the easier it is to play. As I said, there's good reason why we don't typically play a staccato melody with one finger. Too many adjustments is that reason.

"Lol" doesn't even begin to express what I felt when I read this.

[nyiregyhazi]

"Lol" doesn't even begin to express what I felt when I read this.

Yeah, the concept of organising large chunks into physical groupings for the sake of the easiest fingering always cracks me up too.

[thalbergmad]

What cracks me up is that a few bars of music can generate more words than the complete works of Shakespeare.

Thal

[j_menz]

Do you have to play it in tempo? I would probably use something like this:

Which apart from the occassional use of the third on the bottom note is actually in line with what I had in mind.

Given that he is accompanying a singer in her audition, I would imagine it has to be played at whatever tempo she has determined for the aria, so "at tempo" is pretty likely.

@ N - I don't understand your moving from fixed position to fixed position at all. My hands move around as required, and pretty constantly. I'd never regard them as fixed>move>fixed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

[nyiregyhazi]

Which apart from the occassional use of the third on the bottom note is actually in line with what I had in mind.

Given that he is accompanying a singer in her audition, I would imagine it has to be played at whatever tempo she has determined for the aria, so "at tempo" is pretty likely.

@ N - I don't understand your moving from fixed position to fixed position at all. My hands move around as required, and pretty constantly. I'd never regard them as fixed>move>fixed. Maybe I'm misunderstanding.

I don't mean fixed but prepared. Fingers are positioned at the ready in big groups of prepared notes but the arm is free to do subtle drifting motions from side to side while keeping every finger on the key it will be needing- without performing the big realignment of starting a brand new position by dragging the whole hand over (except when it's necessary to start a new one).

Perhaps you didn't mean the thing about 1 and 2 as a guiding principle (implying avoidance of the third even if available for use, within a big position ) but simply for particular spots where it keeps things in a single position? To avoid implying the exclusion of any 3s at the bottom I'd see the leading concept as being one of positions rather than the details of any individual finger. Avoiding 3 means making hazardous and totally unnecessary leaps at the start and especially in bar two. I rarely think in single finger numbers but in terms of chunks under the hand as one single entity. With students, I prefer to bracket large groups of notes and let them figure out which finger goes where to make that happen, rather than detail every number (unless some unusual detail occurs). When you get used to thinking this way, you scarcely need to think about individual fingers but simply feel your way around a whole group from the start- without fingers finding notes at short notice. The fingering given is very much in line with this principle of big integrated chunks rather than a fast rate of riskier position changes.

PS in bar 2 id take 13 at the top (a and c sharp) and and follow with 35. The rest is then a single easy position that covers the whole bar. It would be extremely risky and more complex to have a formula of 2 for black keys and 1 for whites, with so many individual shifts and many cases of needing to go between two notes with the same finger. Integrating into the largest possible groups is easier both mentally and physically.

[j_menz]

Perhaps you didn't mean the thing about 1 and 2 as a guiding principle (implying avoidance of the third even if available for use, within a big position ) but simply for particular spots where it keeps things in a single position?

I didn't mean to imply an avoidance of the third. If it's on hand and easily available, by all means use it. 1 and 2 seem to me to occur most often though and I was more concenrned with the awkwardness of moving them each on and off black notes, causing the hand to potentially twist a bit (unnesccessarily). If the third is handy and avoids extra movement, that would be preferable to using one of the others and moving further than necessary.

[nyiregyhazi]

I didn't mean to imply an avoidance of the third. If it's on hand and easily available, by all means use it. 1 and 2 seem to me to occur most often though and I was more concenrned with the awkwardness of moving them each on and off black notes, causing the hand to potentially twist a bit (unnesccessarily). If the third is handy and avoids extra movement, that would be preferable to using one of the others and moving further than necessary.

I think it works as a secondary principle, but it would wreak havoc in bar 2. I'd only follow that as my guide where it does not conflict with a primary principle of integrating many notes under a prepared position. If it starts forcing many position shifts at short notice, it can cause major problems. Also, in a few cases I'd take a thumb on a black key for the sake of getting more out of a single hand position (not in this specific example though). In this example the 1 and 2 thing (where useful) sorts itself out between black and white keys, simply by conceiving positions. When you pair them off in logical groups, it will be natural to have them like that (although small hands may prefer to slide the thumb).

[j_menz]

I think it works as a secondary principle, but it would wreak havoc in bar 2. I'd only follow that as my guide where it does not conflict with a primary principle of integrating many notes under a prepared position. If it starts forcing many position shifts at short notice, it can cause major problems. Also, in a few cases I'd take a thumb on a black key for the sake of getting more out of a single hand position (not in this specific example though). In this example the 1 and 2 thing (where useful) sorts itself out between black and white keys, simply by conceiving positions.

We clearly have a different mental approach going on; I don't think in terms of positions at all, rather of flowing movement.

[nyiregyhazi]

We clearly have a different mental approach going on; I don't think in terms of positions at all, rather of flowing movement.

This is my reason for viewing it this way though. Movement flows easiest when many fingers are at the ready. It's not about a fixed arm but fingertips that are ready on the keys. Quick shifts generally interrupt flow more than they aid it- for the simple reason that there's more ground to cover and more often. As I say, it's the same reason why a staccato melody isn't played with only 1 finger. When you see great artists from overhead, they usually go straight into big positions- rather than find notes one by one. Brahms clearly conceived all his fingerings this way, from the manner of groupings.

[j_menz]

Movement flows easiest when many fingers are at the ready. It's not about a fixed arm but fingertips that are ready on the keys. Quick shifts generally interrupt flow more than they aid it- for the simple reason that there's more ground to cover and more often.

I agree completely, and would say that that is precisely the reason I view it the way I do. I'm not sure we are arriving at different points, just conceptualising it differently.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Do you have to play it in tempo? I would probably use something like this:

Oooh thanks for writing it out for me.

[lostinidlewonder]

One should avoid repeating use of the same middle fingers (234) from one chord to the next (especially given the speed of the semiquavers), I am surprised one so called expert failed to promote this. Repeating the same middle fingers does not promote a supple hand at all.

Bar 1: (35) (12) (14)    (35) (14) (25)     (14) (23) (15)
Bar 2:(52) (14) (23)     (14) (35) (24)     (35) (42) (13)
Bar 3: (35) (12) (14)    (35) (24) (15)     (14) (23) (15)

[birba]

I have accopanied this aria countless times and i can assure you there is absolutely no problem in using the same finger from one chord to the next.  Like i said, the tempo is not fast.  That fingering there isn't bad.  My god, what would you do if you had to accompany zerbinetta's aria from ariadne auf naxos?!

[lostinidlewonder]

Like i said, the tempo is not fast.

It is about 6 chords per second that's not slow.

I have accopanied this aria countless times and i can assure you there is absolutely no problem in using the same finger from one chord to the next.

It is just less efficient by comparison if you ask me.

[birba]

That's a little fast.  And said like that it sounds  harder then a liszt transcendental etude!
But anyway, i had an idea how to practise this.  Forget about repeating those two-note chords.  Just practise the change in the positions like it was a simple 9/8 tempo with just 8th notes.  When you've got that down, repeating the r.h. chords is a cinch.

[lostinidlewonder]

That's a little fast.

It says in the tempo marking 63 crotchet beats per minute. The score is in 3/4 time meaning 3 crotchet beats per bar. The bar is divided into three groups of 6 semiquavers. So 6 semiquaver chords per crotchet beat which is about 6 per second though that is about 5% too slow. Of course you may play slower than tempo marking but certainly it is not too fast doing it as written.

[birba]

Yes, I know how to count.  But it is usually sung a bit slower.

[nyiregyhazi]

One should avoid repeating use of the same middle fingers (234) from one chord to the next (especially given the speed of the semiquavers), I am surprised one so called expert failed to promote this. Repeating the same middle fingers does not promote a supple hand at all.

Bar 1: (35) (12) (14)    (35) (14) (25)     (14) (23) (15)
Bar 2:(52) (14) (23)     (14) (35) (24)     (35) (42) (13)
Bar 3: (35) (12) (14)    (35) (24) (15)     (14) (23) (15)

? so how do you play major scales in thirds without ever using 3 twice in a row? Given how fast people can execute those, it's clearly not something that need be excluded. By striving to make the most of each hand position, you will avoid repeating fingers where it would be harmful. The concept already takes care of that- because the harm comes from needless position shifts.However, when you need to change hand position, either way, there is scant difference. For example, I have not the problem starting the second beat of bar 2 with 13 35- ie the standard fingering for A major thirds. If you're genuinely ruling out that fingering, it would be of interest to know how you finger A major thirds.

I think it's pretty clear that this rule should only be applied where repeating the finger would contribute to a needless number of position shifts.

[lostinidlewonder]

? so how do you play major scales in thirds without ever using 3 twice in a row? Given how fast people can execute those, it's clearly not something that need be excluded. By striving to make the most of each hand position, you will avoid repeating fingers where it would be harmful. The concept already takes care of that- because the harm comes from needless position shifts.However, when you need to change hand position, either way, there is scant difference. For example, I have not the problem starting the second beat of bar 2 with 13 35- ie the standard fingering for A major thirds. If you're genuinely ruling out that fingering, it would be of interest to know how you finger A major thirds.

I'm sorry but we already have the context to discuss we do not need your random examples to look at thanks. I am interested that given your so called expertise you could not even provide a proper answer in this thread but still decided to word salad it and try to show people they are wrong.

[nyiregyhazi]

I'm sorry but we already have the context to discuss we do not need your random examples to look at thanks. I am interested that given your so called expertise you could not even provide a proper answer in this thread but still decided to word salad it and try to show people they are wrong.

I'm not interested in your feud, buddy. I responded because I felt the poster could be misled by advice that promoted many hand position changes. And without giving a supposed rule that would rule out the validity of standard major thirds fingering.

I didn't provide an answer because I don't believe in spoonfeeding fingers but in finding your own with chunking.

[lostinidlewonder]

I'm not interested buddy, I responded because I felt the poster could be misled by advice that promoted many hand position changes. And without giving a supposed rule that would rule out the validity of standard major thirds fingering.

If you think my fingering advise is misleading then you gotta go learn how to play piano again.. buddy.

[lostinidlewonder]

I didn't provide an answer because I don't believe in spoonfeeding fingers but in finding your own with chunking.

I think rather that you can't. You enjoy your smokes and mirrors.

[nyiregyhazi]

If you think my fingering advise is misleading then you gotta go learn how to play piano again.. buddy.

Then tell us how you finger major scales without repeating the middle finger, as your rule says not to. How about the  A major in the chopin thirds etude?

If you want to stand by your rule as being a genuine guiding rule (rather than a surface trend that results from playing with big chunks under the hand, but which need not restrict you when a position change is necessary anyway) you need to demonstrate how you manage to employ it in this context. otherwise, it ain't no rule, sorry.

[lostinidlewonder]

Then tell us how you finger major scales without repeating the middle finger, as your rule says not to. How about the  A major in the chopin thirds etude?

If you want to stand by your rule as being a genuine guiding rule (rather than a surface trend that results from playing with big chunks under the hand) you need to demonstrate how you manage to employ it in this context. otherwise, it ain't no rule, sorry.

I already said we do not need your random examples we have all the notes and context we need right here in this thread. You are trying to talk about other random things, WE HAVE THE DAMN MUSIC IN FRONT OF US.

[nyiregyhazi]

I already said we do not need your random examples we have all the notes and context we need right here in this thread. You are trying to talk about other random things, WE HAVE THE DAMN MUSIC IN FRONT OF US.

Yes, as I recall in the other thread you do not believe any advice can be transferable to more than one context. So obviously you were making a rule for this passage alone and it should not be applied to a single note elsewhere? Perhaps not even the next bar?

You could have made that a lot clearer, because it sure as hell looked like you were making a general rule to me...