Pianiasts banging at Chopin's Op. 44/Sounding intense without banging

[wnlqxod]

Recently, I've been having a thing about Chopin's Op. 44.
So, I decided to give that piece a listen.
Yes, I looked at the score, and I get that the A (i.e. I include the brief bouts of Bb minor as belonging to section A) section is very intense and dramatic and all, but...
the last time I checked, the Polonaise is a DANCE.
Certainly, no dancer pounds his/her feet into oblivion lest he/she suffer joint problems!  

Also on here, do you see ANY dancer aggressivly pounding at it? I don't think so, and any pounding that they are doing is probably in the bedroom.

Seriously, why do so many pianists bang, hammer, and beat this piece into the Andromeda Galaxy?  IMO, things can certainly sound "intense" without all that banging, particularly when a piece can sound bad by excessive banging.
Just using Chopin's Prelude Op 28 No 24 as an example...
i.e.

The same piece, approaching the "excessive bang" level:

Note: I CERTAINLY DO NOT INTEND BLAND- i.e.

(note: I know, Dang Thai Son didn't win the 1980 Chopin Competition for nothing, and he didn't go to the Moscow Tchaikovsky conservatory for nothing and all, but, this performance is just bland  ... with this being said: he certainly produces a world-class SOUND here. I'd certainly shell out a fortune to listen to that sound in a concert hall)

How do you get that intense, passionate sound WITHOUT the "bang"?
What's your opinion on it?

(p.s. I DO think that "banging" can be used to marvelous effect- like this:

It's just that, there are appropriate and inappropriate times for it)

[slobone]

I'm sure you must be aware that Chopin wrote a lot of pieces in "dance" formats that he never expected people to dance to. This is certainly true with many of the waltzes and mazurkas, especially the later ones. The polonaises are usually thought to be more expressions of Polish nationalism than dance pieces per se.

That said, yes certainly banging is unappealing if carried to excess. But some pieces seem to call for it, at least in spots.

[nyiregyhazi]

Recently, I've been having a thing about Chopin's Op. 44.
So, I decided to give that piece a listen.
Yes, I looked at the score, and I get that the A (i.e. I include the brief bouts of Bb minor as belonging to section A) section is very intense and dramatic and all, but...
the last time I checked, the Polonaise is a DANCE.
Certainly, no dancer pounds his/her feet into oblivion lest he/she suffer joint problems!  

Also on here, do you see ANY dancer aggressivly pounding at it? I don't think so, and any pounding that they are doing is probably in the bedroom.

Seriously, why do so many pianists bang, hammer, and beat this piece into the Andromeda Galaxy?  IMO, things can certainly sound "intense" without all that banging, particularly when a piece can sound bad by excessive banging.
Just using Chopin's Prelude Op 28 No 24 as an example...
i.e.

The same piece, approaching the "excessive bang" level:

Note: I CERTAINLY DO NOT INTEND BLAND- i.e.

(note: I know, Dang Thai Son didn't win the 1980 Chopin Competition for nothing, and he didn't go to the Moscow Tchaikovsky conservatory for nothing and all, but, this performance is just bland  ... with this being said: he certainly produces a world-class SOUND here. I'd certainly shell out a fortune to listen to that sound in a concert hall)

How do you get that intense, passionate sound WITHOUT the "bang"?
What's your opinion on it?

(p.s. I DO think that "banging" can be used to marvelous effect- like this:

It's just that, there are appropriate and inappropriate times for it)

Recently, I've been having a thing about Chopin's Op. 44.
So, I decided to give that piece a listen.
Yes, I looked at the score, and I get that the A (i.e. I include the brief bouts of Bb minor as belonging to section A) section is very intense and dramatic and all, but...
the last time I checked, the Polonaise is a DANCE.
Certainly, no dancer pounds his/her feet into oblivion lest he/she suffer joint problems!  

Also on here, do you see ANY dancer aggressivly pounding at it? I don't think so, and any pounding that they are doing is probably in the bedroom.

Seriously, why do so many pianists bang, hammer, and beat this piece into the Andromeda Galaxy?  IMO, things can certainly sound "intense" without all that banging, particularly when a piece can sound bad by excessive banging.
Just using Chopin's Prelude Op 28 No 24 as an example...
i.e.

The same piece, approaching the "excessive bang" level:

Note: I CERTAINLY DO NOT INTEND BLAND- i.e.

(note: I know, Dang Thai Son didn't win the 1980 Chopin Competition for nothing, and he didn't go to the Moscow Tchaikovsky conservatory for nothing and all, but, this performance is just bland  ... with this being said: he certainly produces a world-class SOUND here. I'd certainly shell out a fortune to listen to that sound in a concert hall)

How do you get that intense, passionate sound WITHOUT the "bang"?
What's your opinion on it?

(p.s. I DO think that "banging" can be used to marvelous effect- like this:

It's just that, there are appropriate and inappropriate times for it)

Try the end of this post:

pianoscience.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/introduction-to-three-core-posts-on.html

It's only a broad look at the key issues and I'll write more comprehensive step by step exercises on the same issue eventually, but it may give some ideas. The key is that the hand is actively opening through the keys (not bracing or collapsing) and that the arm does not jam down at the point of landing. With this technique you can either play from direct contact or lift your hand above your head and actively swing the arm down like rubinstein, without a trace of banging or impact - but don't expect to get to that stage over night!

Other good exercises involve resting a collapsed hand on the surface of the keys and pushing the hand open against the surface, without getting the keys moving. This makes the fingers "firm" against the keys rather than firm against nothing in particular (which is simply tension rather than useful firmness).

[pianoman53]

even a musical topic, you'll turn into a technical discussion. I'm proud of you!

[nyiregyhazi]

even a musical topic, you'll turn into a technical discussion. I'm proud of you!

 

Yes, when he asked how to get such a sound, he was obviously asking for vague half-baked metaphors, not practical advice.

Sorry for giving such an irrelevant answer. The real secret is to imagine that you're thrusting away at an inflatable woman. That will sort it out in no time.

[lelle]

Recently, I've been having a thing about Chopin's Op. 44.
So, I decided to give that piece a listen.
Yes, I looked at the score, and I get that the A (i.e. I include the brief bouts of Bb minor as belonging to section A) section is very intense and dramatic and all, but...
the last time I checked, the Polonaise is a DANCE.
Certainly, no dancer pounds his/her feet into oblivion lest he/she suffer joint problems! 

Also on here, do you see ANY dancer aggressivly pounding at it? I don't think so, and any pounding that they are doing is probably in the bedroom.

Seriously, why do so many pianists bang, hammer, and beat this piece into the Andromeda Galaxy?  IMO, things can certainly sound "intense" without all that banging, particularly when a piece can sound bad by excessive banging.
Just using Chopin's Prelude Op 28 No 24 as an example...
i.e.

The same piece, approaching the "excessive bang" level:

Note: I CERTAINLY DO NOT INTEND BLAND- i.e.

(note: I know, Dang Thai Son didn't win the 1980 Chopin Competition for nothing, and he didn't go to the Moscow Tchaikovsky conservatory for nothing and all, but, this performance is just bland  ... with this being said: he certainly produces a world-class SOUND here. I'd certainly shell out a fortune to listen to that sound in a concert hall)

How do you get that intense, passionate sound WITHOUT the "bang"?
What's your opinion on it?

(p.s. I DO think that "banging" can be used to marvelous effect- like this:

It's just that, there are appropriate and inappropriate times for it)

Here is a non-banged performance of Op 44:

It's probably my favourite performance of this piece, actually.

It's not really a dance in this case, more like a fantasy piece. It seems to me like it's only based on two polish dances (polonaise and mazurka) to achieve a poetic effect. The tragedy of his people and his homeland, so to say. That being said, there is no need to pound. It should be loud, sure, but still musical, tragic and dramatic.

[ppianista]

Here is a non-banged performance of Op 44:

Strange how differently people listen. I find that performance too wild, too crude, lacking depth. And yes, "banged". The piano sounds awful.  - If anything in this thread is really "banged", then it's this example.  

Simply compare it to this recording.
I didn't know Folke Nauta up to now, but there's someone really playing Chopin:

[lelle]

 

Strange how differently people listen. I find that performance too wild, too crude, lacking depth. And yes, "banged". The piano sounds awful.  - If anything in this thread is really "banged", then it's this example. 

Simply compare it to this recording.
I didn't know Folke Nauta up to now, but there's someone really playing Chopin:

That is funny! "Banged" to me is when people hack out notes at the exact same volume without much tactfullness/timing or tying the notes together in a musical line. And despite the flaws that comes with it being a live recording, I think the one I linked is very musical (I don't care much about recording quality as long as the playing moves or excites me, which is why I'd listen to raspy old Cortot recordings over many modern, cleaner records  ).
The pianist you suggested has a more restrained, "noble" approach. I can enjoy that too! But I just find the passionate, "desperate" approach of the first recording more exciting, I like how he deals with rhythm and rubato, (it should be wild!). It's different approaches really, both musical though 

It's all subjective, of course.

[wnlqxod]

Pontinen is not "banged" per se, but a bit too "pedalled". Also, not only is the pianist very generous with the damper pedal, the pianist sometimes demonstrates poor pedal control.
For example, at measure 8, before playing the final two C sharps, you can still hear the previous F sharp still resonating. That's just poor pedal work IMO. The pianist should have had been more nimble with releasing the pedal.

Folke Nauta's playing is very classy-sounding IMO.

[virtuoso80]

While I must agree that banging the keys generally has diminishing returns, I consider the Polonaise to be a very macho genre. As such, I see it as a chance to let loose and have fun being aggressive on the piano.