What time to take a break during practice?

[circlek]

Hey all

Whenever I practice one of my pieces, I start out good at first but then it gradually becomes more and more frustrating as my skill on certain passages starts to wane...then I stop practicing.

Is it right for me to stop practicing when I start to suddenly play really bad? (Note, I mean playing bad on parts that I started out playing good.)

[andreslr6]

Yeah, actually, as soon as the first mistake appears. Stand up, walk around, I don't know, drink a glass of water, a cup of coffee, then return, but don't take to long, or maybe, instead of stopping, just move on to another section and then return to that one just to "delete" that mistake.

[kirbycide]

That is correct. You could also play a Romantic piece after messing u p a Classical piece.

[bencollisonmusic]

How do you practice? Are you just playing through the pieces you know from beginning to end or are you just working on places to you mess up. If you started off playing a passage well, then there is no need to be practicing it. Here is how I start a practice session on a particular piece that I am working on. I would first play through the piece 1-2 times to see where I'm still having difficulties and where I had cleaned up a difficult spot from a previous practice session. I usually like to pick 2-3 sections (usually between 1-5 lines) that I'm still having difficulties with and just work at them until I hear satisfying improvements. Being a student, I totally want to be playing though the passages I do well because that is just so much fun but it's not going to be helping me. I used to have your case of being able to play a part well and then just practicing it and hearing that it is starting to fall apart. Again, if it is good to begin with, then you don't need to work on it. Work on the difficult parts and you will see that your performance of the piece and a whole will improve substantially.

I hope this helps and if you have any more questions, please send me a message.

~BCM

[ade16]

Your question actually relates to the wider issue of learning to practise efficiently, so it may help if I summarise some points I made in response to another post in this regard recently.

I find myself that setting aside enough time to practise is difficult with work committments (I am a full time music teacher who only occasionally gives piano recitals these days), but I do make the time. Trying to maximise the efficiency of practice is absolutely crucial. For example, not wasting time just playing the same difficult passage over and over, tripping up at same places, physically or mentally or both; rather, drilling down to the problem, identifying it, then working hard to fix it through very focussed and intensive practice. This sometimes involves adjusting the fingerings as well as slow practice, gradually building up to the required speed and then placing back into the context of the whole passage or movement. This approach is nothing new of course, but I am very rigid with it given the limited time I can find to practise properly. I cannot afford to waste time just playing through pieces making the same mistakes, indeed as you say, seemingly getting worse. A common problem for every musician potentially, unless you develop more efficient, analytical practice techniques.

An anecdote I heard years ago was about a landlady who was excited to be renting a room to a concert pianist, who clearly was looking for a room with a piano. She expected to hear her own private concert recital by listening at the door. She was regularly disappointed because all she ever seemed to hear was endless scales, arpeggios and general excercises, and bits here and there of real pieces of music, very short sections of which just seemed to be repeated over and over and over again. This story may be slightly apocryphal; nevertheless, it does illustrate the point I made earlier about 'drilling down to the technical problem', analysing it and trying to resolve the persistent mistakes(s) systematically.

Wrong choice of fingerings are often the root cause of technical difficulties in playing a passage of music. The more you play it, the more the inappropriate fingerings start to create problems with accuracy and fluency. Correct fingerings are absolutely crucial, but not crucially absolute. At the end of the day you should try out alternatives and eventually settle on the finger choices which feel most natural and comfortable for you (not necessarily those in the score, which more often than not are suggestions from the editor, not the original composer. Even suggestions from Beethoven and Chopin for example, who were pretty meticulous with fingering passages, are not necessarily comfortable for everyone, with different sized hands or length of fingers) However, once you have tried out alternatives and finally settled on your chosen fingerings, then you must stick to them in all subsequent practice. Constantly changing fingerings will only add even more confusion in the long run.  

I absolutely agree with the idea of studying away from the piano with the score, imagining your way through a piece. This also helps when memorising. A teacher once said to me when I was a piano student at London University studying performance as part of the B.Mus. degree, "you do not know a melodic passage until you can play every note from memory with only one finger." I thought at the time he was being rather pedantic, until I heard him play a recital at the Royal Festival Hall, in which he was virtually note perfect, with excellent attention to detail throughout in terms of dynamics, phrasing and expression, as well as his overall accuracy and fluency.

My main concern is that, during practice, there will inevitably come a point where your efficiency will decline through fatigue and loss of concentration. Shorter bursts of effort, say up to an hour at a time with at least a 20min break, are far more beneficial than constantly practising, in the hope that pushing yourself hard lke a marathon will yield great improvements. Not necessarily. This is not a race. In fact, this is the law of diminishing returns once physical and mental fatigue set in! Instead, practise for shorter sessions, and each chunk of maybe up to an hour or so, should have a different focus, whether excercises, different pieces, sections within the same piece etc I have learned a lot from mistakes I have made in the past with my practice habits over the last 40 years or so. There is more advice I could offer, but at this stage see how you get on with these basic tips with regard to improving the efficiency of your practice. Good luck.  

[bencollisonmusic]

I've read your whole thing so I will try to comment on most things you mentioned.

1. I'm not a perfect performer and I always make mistakes... Through studying at my music conservatory (this being my first year) I learned to slow down dramatically while learning the pieces. I've also learned how to play through passages where I always make mistakes until I actually pull out that difficult passage and pretty much have the fingers relearn it. Slowing it down and just playing it with proper fingers over and over again at a slow tempo should do the trick, it usually does for me and I gradually increase the speed.

2. Time is limited and practicing scales and arpeggios is not something I like doing (I noticed you responded to another forum of this topic that I had written in).

3. Once a week I just sit down and play through all the pieces I can play through well as sort of practice performance myself. There could also be a possibility that the pieces you are trying to learn may just require a certain amount of time that you don't have in order to play through then cleanly.

4. (side track) Your summary ended up to be longer then your original message, haha... but going further into detail did help me understand your situation. You said you were a music teacher... I just know that the best teachers usually are not also the best performers.

5. I'm only 18 (turning 19 in may) so my experience is very little compared to what you have. I'm sorry if what I say is inefficient due to my lack of knowledge.

But you can hear some of my latest performances as www.soundcloud.com/bencollisonmusic  You will find that they are not perfect and I do make mistakes... but I learn to flow over my mistakes making them more easily covered up.

[ade16]

Thank you for your comments, and I thought that your initial advice to the original post was absolutely spot on. The only extra thing I can offer is more years of experience with regard to piano practice, but that absolutely does not mean that I am any better, just ahead of the game in time! I have learned so much from my teachers and just wish to pass it on!.
I immediately responded to your comment and appreciated it: "You said you were a music teacher... I just know that the best teachers usually are not also the best performers." That really touched a nerve because (no intention of being conceited or big-headed - I really am not that kind of person - but I do nevertheless enjoy praise, like most people do!) I might have been a greater performer if I had focussed exclusively on my performance skills. Like many others, I chose to be a music teacher instead, in my case 35 years ago. I have gained great satisfaction, joy and pride from the success of many former students, but I still regret to an extent that I could have been a far better performing pianist myself. I'm only in my mid 50s so I still think I can do it. I need to apply my own advice to myself more. Sorry to digress, but your comment really made me remember!

I am currently trying to perfect some works that I have struggled with for years, for example Beethoven sonata Op.53 Waldstein. Mostly ok, but some sections are an absolute bugger to memorise, even once you have finally learned to play them! Also, various more challenging Chopin works, such as Fantasie in F minor, Op.49, the 4 Ballades, Sonatas 2 and 3 etc
I will certainly listen to your performances and give any advice I can.
Sorry to ramble, but talking to you guys makes me remember where I was with my playing 40 years ago, and I am very happy to offer any advice (based on my many past mistakes!) that I can.  
The point of all of this is, whatever you aspire to as a musician, never ever give up!!! 
Best Wishes,
Ade

[bronnestam]

I smile at the description of the disappointed landlady who thought she would get private concerts ...

My mother is the best mother you can imagine and she has always been very loving and supportive. But she does not know much about learning music pieces, and she made a big mistake when I was a teenager and took piano lessons. Sometimes a piece was very challenging and I really, really wanted to learn it. So I automatically chose the "right" approach - I practiced some "little details" over and over again, and as I usually make A LOT of mistakes in the beginning -  I'm sort of blind in my first attempts and play every key wrong, but suddenly it justs clicks for me - it sounded horrible.
And my dear mother entered the living room with a concerned face and said "isn't that piece a bit too difficult for you, really ...?"

 

Baah.

NEVER say that to someone who is trying to learn something new!!! Because that quiet little voice has sometimes haunted me over the years, causing my self confidence and my optimism to drop down to the cellar.
I stopped playing and did not start over again until I, years later, bought myself a digital piano where I could use headphones. At last, stop of the public humiliation! But sometimes I wonder ... if my family of today really knew the whole process, how it REALLY sounds when I start learning something ... would they hate it, would they be shocked, or would they understand? Still I am very ashamed of my first attempts, I keep on thinking that I'm far worse than most piano players I know. A normal pianist just cannot be THAT bad, I think. Something is wrong with me ... but I practice and I practice, and the end result isn't that bad at all. A few months later, that is ...
And still most people seem to think just like my mother, that practicing is about playing what you DO know instead of what you DON'T know.

Finally I learned that I must never leave the piano in a frustrated mood. If things go wrong while I practice, I try to calm down, take a few deep breaths, ANALYZE what went wrong and then try to figure out what to do about it - and then play the difficult part again, this time veeeery very slowly, so that it just has to be better. And then I take a break!

[bencollisonmusic]

Well right now I'm just studying at Longy School of Music in Boston. You can follow me either at www.soundcloud.com/bencollisonmusic or at www.facebook.com/bencollisonmusic I am interested in being a piano teacher and my vision right now is to be a professor. I'm at my first year in college so anything can happen. But when I start teaching, any advice and tips are greatly appreciated. I've had some very good teachers who just didn't perform as well as I do (I think). My current piano teacher is Ludmilla Lifson, she graduated from the St. Petersburg Conservatory with honorable mentions and she was also a professor there. I am very lucky to be studying with her. I hope we can keep in touch (and that you follow me if you wish).

~BCM

[ming304]

Do u know what would be awesome? If someone could make a series of youtube videos demonstrating how they go about learning a new piece, like start from scratch, then show how your practicing a certain passage at first, then skip to the part where u finally get it, and so on and so forth

[bencollisonmusic]

That sounds like a cool idea... It would really surprise me if there isn't something like that up there already! Perhaps I will look into making one

~BCM

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

It is best to take a break after you have competed your scale review of all 12 Major and Minor scales 12 times.

[piano6888]

From my personal experience, the best time to take a break would be whenever you feel that you are:

-not as focused as the beginning of practice.
-when you practiced for a while (usually over a 1 hour sitting) that your brain needs time to digest what you have just learned/
-when the method of practice seems to be counterproductive.
-fingers start to become tired/stiff/sore/etc.

[bronnestam]

Do u know what would be awesome? If someone could make a series of youtube videos demonstrating how they go about learning a new piece, like start from scratch, then show how your practicing a certain passage at first, then skip to the part where u finally get it, and so on and so forth

Oh, that would probably just make me feel miserable. Sometimes I think I'm the slowest learner on earth, that is, extremely untalented. So, whenever I see someone else learn pieces, I just feel like " ... oops, how quickly she learned that!" Yes, everyone has to start from scratch when learning a new piece, but I seem to be stuck on "scratch" for quite a long time!
 

[ade16]

Like everything else in this life, just because you learn something slower than some other people does not mean you are not talented!   Indeed, it usually means you are more meticulous! I am exactly the same; it is not a race. What counts is the quality of the performance you ultimately achieve, not how quickly you attained this standard. Like people who finish exams earlier than most, or hand in essays early, that absolutely does not mean they are better than everyone else, just quicker. I am not saying this is always true, but I have come across students who have learned a piece in double quick time, but when you hear them play it from beginning to end, it is not as secure as it should be and will probably fall apart in performance in front of an audience or examiners! I have seen it happen several times.
Slow and meticulous is best, believe me. I have seen and heard a lot of performances, including my own. I have slipped up several times myself and learned to prepare myself better. That is more thorough and intensive practice. If that means taking longer, then thats fine! Above all, everyone learns at different speeds, but faster is not necessarily best.  

Just a final point in reference to another recent post which pointed out reasons for taking a break from practice, if you are any of the following:
"not as focused as the beginning of practice.
-when you practiced for a while (usually over a 1 hour sitting) that your brain needs time to digest what you have just learned/
-when the method of practice seems to be counterproductive.
-fingers start to become tired/stiff/sore/etc."

I agree with all of this with a caution however.  
If your fingers do start to become tired, stiff or sore after even a few hours of practice, let alone just one or two, then you really need to have someone who is experienced in these matters have a look at your arm, hand and finger positions over the keyboard, as well as your overall posture. Poor posture and positioning generally can cause some pain and discomfort, and therefore if you are playing properly you should not be getting stiffness or soreness in your fingers. You may occasionally get muscular aches, including in the hands when you are playing with muscles you have not used much before. This will depend on the physical challenges of a particular piece, but should soon wear off, and your body will get used to it as with any other form of excercise. However, stiffness and soreness in the fingers points to a technique which needs to be refined. This is not normal. Minimal effort is essential, with relaxed back, neck, shoulders, arms, wrists, hands and fingers. Have a look into the Alexander technique, it is brilliant! It has helped millions of musicians, dancers and other physical performers, as well those playing sports. It really does work.