Pathetique Grade 10 or ARCT piece and suggestions to ARCT program

[draganpower]

So I was just curious. I finished my Grade 10 exam 6 years ago and I played Beethoven's pathetique (1st and second movement only) and under the syllabus then, it was a grade 10 piece. However I see many people selecting their ARCT program on this forum and they have chosen the Pathetique. Has it be upgraded as an ARCT repertoire?

If it has, that really sucks because I much rather play that whole piece than choose any of the other pieces for ARCT now. I stopped playing piano after getting my grade 10 and now I have decided to do my ARCT.

Also any suggestions of ARCT program. Right now I am thinking List A - not decided, List B - thinking Mozart's kk331, or Beethoven's appassionata or moonlight, however all overplayed. List C - Ballade in G minor, List D - Rachmaninoff prelude in G minor op 23 no 5, List E - I don't like modern music and was thinking Samuel Barber's Nocturne, and Etude - Chaminades Autumn op 35, no 2. Would like your thoughts

[thesixthsensemusic]

First of all I don't know anything of this grade system,, so I can only comment on the difficulty of Beethoven's op. 13 as I played the piece nyself... secondly I think you will be helped by checking out www.henle.de and browse their catalog, which contains a very handy difficulty ranking per work for piano solo works.

The Pathetique is rated 7-8 out of 9. Same goes for, for example, Beethoven's Sturm(Tempest)-sonata, Chopin's 3rd Ballade, Schumann's 1st piano sonata, 'Baba Yaga's Hut on Hen's Legs' from Mussorgsky's Pictures, Chopin's Barcarolle, Liszt's Valleé d'Obermann or the great Schubert piano sonata D960 (or, as I call it, his Symphony for Piano in B flat).

Do keep in mind that this is personal (they rank Beethoven's Pathetique as harder than the Moonlight Sonata, which I agree upon but most people, including Hans von Bülow who rated the Beethoven sonatas in difficulty himself, don't, I also doubt Valleé d'Obermann is easier than Chopin's 1st Ballade, ranked an 8 )

[nanabush]

I did the 1st and 2nd movements for my Grade 10, and the next year they had indeed bumped the Sonata to ARCT.

I wouldn't suggest doing the same piece for another exam... why not try another?  There are about twenty Beethoven Sonatas at the ARCT level; try a new one

I'd suggest:  Op 2 #3 , Op. 26, Op 31 #2 (Tempest), Op. 78, Op. 90

...I've played the Op. 78 and it was a VERY short Sonata containing a gorgeous first movement, and an extremely quirky (and tricky) second movement.  A few of my friends have played Op. 90 for exams/juries, and have said that it's a 'safe' pick because it doesn't have any treacherous sections.  It's also not heavily played (the reason why I didn't suggest the Moonlight...it's a great piece, but I wouldn't recommend playing it for an exam unless you really have your heart set on it)

So, generally I'd say you should pick a new Sonata (but probably avoid Op 53, Op 57, and the Op 101+ Sonatas).  The 'big' ones are in the syllabus, but I don't think the amount of work required for one of these is well reflected in an RCM exam...


Here are some suggestions for other lists:

List A:
-Any of the Toccatas (E minor and C minor are REALLY good)
-Prelude and Fugue in Bb minor book 1, C# major book 1

List C:
-Ballade #2 or #3
-Liszt 'Sposalizio'
-Schubert Impromptu in C minor, Op.90 #1

List D:
-Albeniz 'Leyenda'
-ANY DEBUSSY!!!! Look at 'Images' 'Estampes' and the Prelude from "Pour le Piano'
-Gershwin 3 Preludes
-MacDowell 'Witches' Dance'
-Rachmaninoff: Prelude in D major, B minor, E major, Bb major
-Ravel: Sonatine, or any movement from 'Miroirs'

List E:
-Barber 'Excursions'
-Bartok: Sonatine, or the first Romanian Dance Op 8a (I played this... it is a creepy-ass piece! and SO fun to play)
-Ginastera: Suite de danzas criollas
-Liebermann: Gargoyles (any 2)
-Prokofiev: Scherzo from '10 pieces, Op. 12)
-Shchedrin: Basso Ostinato (another scary piece)

ETUDES:
-Debussy: "arpeges composes", "pour les cinq doigts"
-Rachmaninoff: Op 39 #7, 8, or 9 (or any for that matter... I just love the last three)
-Scriabin: Any from Op 8 or Op 42 #1, 5, 6, 7, 8
-Kapustin: Op 40 etudes (these are insanely good. Very jazzy and virtuoso)


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Broaden your horizons!!! The rep you have chosen is really good!  But it's the 'mainstream' as far as piano music goes!  These composers have a HUGE amount of incredible music, on par with the stuff you are playing.  Check out some of the stuff I have suggested (again, some superficial suggestions, but the syllabus kinda sucks to be honest)

[symphonicdance]

Is ARCT syllabus available for free download? 

(I don't grow up from the Canadian stream  but just am interested to learn a bit more.  Some of the pieces of ARCT belong to the Diploma level of ABRSM and Associate level Trinity (both UK exams) whilst some belong to the Licentitate level.  For LRCT, some Licentitate level and some Fellowship level.)

[draganpower]

thanks nanabush for your help. I understand what you mean about my repertoire right now. I just sat down and had the longest discussion with my piano teacher. She strongly did not want me to play anything from Rachmaninoff for now. Which I was really disappointed because I love, love Rachmaninoff's prelude in G minor. but she said my hands are not big enough (can barely reach 9 notes....... I know, Sad hey)  and strong enough to play it because I haven't played piano in 5 years. (Just started training my fingers a month ago). Maybe after a year or two of training she will let me.

I got to say I chuckled quite a bit about the sonatas. My piano teacher said exactly what you said. No Mozart, No Waldstein, no Appassionata which I am not surprised and no op 101+ sonatas. Suggested everything you listed and op 10 too. She really wants me to play tempest because it is completely my style. Focuses on my strength. However I think I am leaning towards op 26, op 78, or op 90. Are there limitations or difficulties to these pieces? and please put my small hands into consideration.

I understand your apprehension on Chopin's Ballade 1. I actually have learned all the "notes" to that piece and just need to work on everything else in it haha. She also said the Barcarolle I will do so well in that piece because it is so my style or Berceuse, but everything else in comparison to Berceuse seems better. one thing is a must in my repertoire is Chopin. I love Chopin, so List C or an Etude, must be Chopin.

I have to figure out if Chaminade's Autumn piece is list C or use as an Etude. Because it is technically an etude but I think it is part of the list C repertoire for teachers choice. She needs to do a little research on that piece. Love that piece. Played it before I departed with my piano teacher 6 years ago and so up my alley.

List D Debussy for sure. Debating between Ballade (questioning if it is over played), Pagodes, or Reflets dans l'eau. Love all three hard to decide.

List E. Need to pick something more upbeat and fast because my repertoire is a little on the flowy side if you know what I mean. Need to pick something more dramatic. Everything you listed are pieces I would play except Bartok I don't know if I can handle those reaches

List A she picked prelude in C sharp major in the first book. She always wanted someone to play that piece and she said with me she finally got a chance. So can't really say no to that and not my strongest section and it is only 3 part so I will take it.

Thanks again for your help. Went on a little ramble but there it is. Would like your further opinion.

[nanabush]

Sorry for the late reply!

From what I've noticed, a LOT of people play mainstream rep for these exams.  Pagodes and the Ballade are quite off the beaten path.  I think examiners will hear about a thousand 'Cathedrale Engloutie' (in all honesty, that piece SHOULD be Grade 10, whereas pieces like 'le vent dans les ruines' by Ibert, and 'Fountain at Acqua Paola' by Griffes should be ARCT).

Pagodes is an incredible textural piece.  You get some pretty pungent harmonies at times, and the extremely pentatonic nature makes it a good contrast with pretty much everything else on the ARCT program (it's a pretty atmospheric piece but you get to show off some finger work on the last few pages)..

The Ballade is also awesome... I'm making this piece one of my summer projects.  VERY underplayed.  Most students who play Debussy for an exam will pick a Prelude or one of the Images.

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I'm not sure about the Chaminade.  One of my friends played an etude by Pierné for the ARCT, so I think if it's an etude by nature, it'd be safer to put it in that list.

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Good choice on the List A!  Another piece I wish I had played!  The fugue is a monster, but if you like the piece, it's definitely a good pick.

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The Barcarolle is good!  If you can get the swaying rhythm really going underneath the big chords, this would be a solid choice.  The Berceuse is pretty nice, but I think it's a little short compared to the other choices for List C... that's just my opinion though

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Don't let the popularity of a piece push you away from learning it though! (I might have given a bad impression of the G minor Ballade, and a handful of the Beethoven haha!)  But what I find is that a lot of students will gravitate towards something that they have already heard a thousand times, and it's a 'safe' pick because they are already very familiar with the piece.  I think for an exam like the ARCT, if you really work hard at creating the program (let alone learn the pieces) and have a unique set worked out, the examiners will take note of that.  BUT, I am positive that people have played the Moonlight for their ARCT and done really well with it. 

For all these lists where you find you have picked something that everyone has played, try listening to pretty much everything else by that composer....I'd have to say that my favourite Chopin piece (a while back) was the Op. 48 #1 Nocturne, but after really getting into his rep, I noticed that he had a handful of Nocturnes that were on par, some excellent Preludes, the Ab major Ballade, the Barcarolle, the F minor Fantasy, and his Rondos... at that point, I was like "holy crap, how do I just pick one piece for my exam?!"... and this is just ONE of the composers in the list... So I guess, just really consider lots of different material to play, it really opens new doors for you, gets you a bit out of your comfort zone at times, but in the end you'll be very happy that you are able to broaden your choices. 

[draganpower]

Hey Nanabush, started learning the Ballade, Beethoven Opus 90, and Prelude and Fugue in C sharp major.

I know I will be spending 2 to 3 years to prepare for this exam so I know I have a lot of time to experiment with pieces. Chances are I will stick with learning one piece for List A, List B, List E, and Etude. That still gives me a lot of room to play around with my two favourite sections List C and List D.

To be honest, out of all the Chopin pieces, these are the ones I have interest in learning:

Ballade in G, Ballade in F major, Barcarolle, Berceuse, Fantasie-impromptu, Nocturne opus 27 no 1, Nocturne opus 48 no 1, or the 2nd scerzo.

Also in list C is Schubert's impromptu.

Out of that list, I probably learn 3 to 5 of them in that time

The Chaminade I found out will cost me extra to have it in my repertoire but doesn't stop me from playing it. Such a fun and gorgeous piece.

For list D I will probably learn the Ballade and Pagodes. Absolutely love both of them, and if I have time, crack at the Rachmaninoff prelude in G minor, or some Faure. Love his Barcarolle's and nocturnes as well.