Help with fingering - Chopin's 3rd Ballade, Op 47

[pytheamateur]

I would appreciate some help with any fingering suggestions for the right hand in bars 160 - 161.  This is the beginning of the c sharp minor section, just before the climax.

I'm having trouble finding a good fingering for the right hand.  I have a good idea of the sound picture I want to achieve, but don't quite know how to go about doing it on a piano.

For the right hand, I want the melody notes to be legato: i.e. the notes g sharp, a, b e, f sharp and g sharp.  The tricky bit is the right hand is also playing other voices at the same time.  I think it is not physically possible to achieve perfect legato in the right hand with fingers alone.  But on the other hand, it would not be good to use too much pedal as this would blur the left hand sixteenth notes.  Hence I think it is important to find a good fingering for the right hand.

I do have a regular teacher, who is a concert pianist.  Unfortunately, there is no place for this kind of discussion in his lessons.  I never get anywhere with him discussing fingering or pedalling.  His advice is to play with any fingering that is comfortable (without ever telling me what would and would not be comfortable).  As for pedalling, all he says is think of the sound picture and listen carefully to the sound you produce and the foot will automatically take care of the rest.  I do feel I would benefit from more practical tips, which I don't think I'm getting enough from him.

Thank you.

[slobone]

I don't have measure numbers in my edition, but I think I know where you mean. For the passage with g# a b e f# g# in the right, you might try (13)(124)(245)(31)(1234)(1245). Can you stretch from the 245 down to the 13?

But in general I agree with your teacher, you have to find the fingering that fits your hand. Also, there are many situations in piano music where you have no choice but to use the same finger on two successive notes in a legato passage. It's just something you have to learn. Pedal helps, of course, but even without the pedal, for example in Bach, what you have to do is figure out what the phrasing should be, the relative volume and timing of each note, and then try to duplicate that with the fingering you're using. Just because the thumb is hitting two keys in a row, doesn't mean both notes have to sound the same. You can "cheat" and trick the audience into thinking it's true legato.

[danhuyle]

There is no right or wrong with fingering. If it's comfortable and you don't strain your arm then it's a good fingering.

To achieve the legato, the top notes have to project the melodic line. The bottom notes, you have to "ignore" them and forget that it's there.

If your teacher is a concert pianist who's played the entire set of Chopin Ballades, surely he would know how to teach what he's mastered.

[serqin]

Having recently worked on this piece I would recomend the following fingering (starting from 2nd beat of bar 160)

13 - 124 - 245 - 13 - 1124 - 1235  (yes play both a+b with the thumb)

This is the only fingering i found which allowed for a seamless legato melody.

Hope this is of use!
 

[pytheamateur]

Thanks to everyone for their response.

I think the fingering suggested for the first 4 chords in question cannot be any better.  The more interesting question concerns the fifth and sixth chords.

The good thing about Slobone's 1234 -1245 is that the second finger can hold on to the B, which is tied, and it makes it more comfortable to move between the two chords.  However, since we are taking the fourth chord with 13, it would not be possible to move from the fourth chord to the fifth with pure finger legato.

The good thing about Serqin's fingering (which was the one I had been trying myself) is that with 13-1124, finger legato is possible between the fourth and fifth chord.  Finger legato is also possible between the fifth and sixth chord.  However, the only doubt I had about this fingering is how am I supposed to hold on to the tied B with this fingering.  What I have been doing during slow practice is as follows:
1.Play the fifth chord (i.e. sixth chord in bar 160) with 1124
2.Hold on to the F sharp with finger 4 while moving finger 2 from D sharp to B.
3. Move to the sixth chord (i.e. first chord in bar 161) by (i) moving thumb from A to the bottom G sharp, (ii) pressing the top G sharp with finger 5 and (iii) releasing the F sharp from the fifth chord.

This seems a bit awkward to do.  Serqin, you think it would be practical when played at speed?  Or I suppose, if one simply ignores the tied B and played it a second time then this would be the perfect fingering in terms of achieving finger legato.  Perhaps hardly anyone would notice anyway?

[pytheamateur]

If your teacher is a concert pianist who's played the entire set of Chopin Ballades, surely he would know how to teach what he's mastered.

The third Ballade is not under his fingers.  Either he has not learnt the piece or has not been practising it.  But there's no doubt he would be able to perform it if he wanted to as I have heard him play Scherzos and the Heroic Polonaise at a recent concert.

I still think a bit more discussion of fingering and pedalling, like the one we are having here would help me a lot.  I have had lessons with other performing teachers and they seemed a lot more willing to do so.  In contrast, I once asked my current teacher about why a certain editor had put a certain fingering on a certain piece and his reaction was to tell me to stop asking stupid questions!

What are your experiences with teachers in that regard?  Is my current teacher's approach rather unconventional?

[serqin]

Your idea of moving the second finger is sound (assuming you can manage at performance speed).
However if you find that troublesome then i would still hold fast to the fingering since the melodic line is of far more importance.

edit: yes, your teachers reluctance is unfamiliar to me. Fingering should be done to be able to reflect the nature of the piece rather then just doing the easiest one. An example of lazy fingering which occurs even among concert pianists is bars 213-216 in the 3rd ballade. Since it may seem impractical to play the section legato they simply ignore it.

[danhuyle]

I had a play on bar 160-161.

My fingering is (from top to bottom), 31, 421, 542, 41, 5321, 541 (holding the B).

That octave passage from 213-216, for people who can only play an octave at the most, they have to use fingers 1 & 5 and they get the legato sound of the melodic line...