Beethoven Op.2 No.1?

[felipe717]

Hello everyone.
I have recently "finished" the F minor Sonata Op.2/1. I have the Henle Edition of Beethoven's Sonatas and I noticed something a little curious.
It's about the 1st and the 4th movement. In my Henle edition score, the development section and the recapitulation (for the 1st and 4th movements) should be repeated. Particularly I don't "like" the movements with this repeat, and every performance I've listened to (at least for what I remember) doesn't have the repeat. I know that Henle is urtext and it follows the first edition (which Beethoven always examined), but I found many editions whit repeat signs and others without them.
In the first movement, bars 49-152 should be repeated?
In the fourth movement, bars 59-196 should be repeated?
I have no idea about how to play these two movements, because I've never listened to performances whose performers play these repeats.
May anyone help me?? I just don't know what to do with this repeats!
Thank you!! (:

[slobone]

I have the Kalmus urtext, and it also shows the repeats. I think that was standard practice in Beethoven's day, to mark a repeat for the second half of a sonata-allegro or rondo movement. Whether performers were expected to play them I have no idea. But I agree that most modern pianists tend not to do that, they probably figure it would be an anticlimax to repeat that part.

[dima_76557]

I think that was standard practice in Beethoven's day, to mark a repeat for the second half of a sonata-allegro or rondo movement. Whether performers were expected to play them I have no idea.

For Beethoven, it was at discretion of performer. Even S. Richter does not repeat and he had very strict rules about repeating. In his case, not repeating must be related to the architecture of the work, balance of material, etc.

[felipe717]

For Beethoven, it was at discretion of performer. Even S. Richter does not repeat and he had very strict rules about repeating. In his case, not repeating must be related to the architecture of the work, balance of material, etc.

I noticed that Arrau does play both repeats. For Beethoven, it was at discretion of performer? '-' I had no idea. In my opinion, the music sounds better - like you said, in matter of architecture of the work, balance of material - without the repeats. But imo if Beethoven wrote the repeats, it's because they should be played. :x But I don't know for sure...
So, I have the "choice" on playing or not the repeats?

[dima_76557]

But imo if Beethoven wrote the repeats, it's because they should be played. :x But I don't know for sure...
So, I have the "choice" on playing or not the repeats?

Beethoven wrote repeats, required to be able to call it sonata form, but he himself did many things that were not custom and went against what he had written. If you have good reason to break existing convention of not repeating and you can make your rendition interesting, do it.
P.S.: Do you know this interesting lecture by András Schiff about this sonata?
https://audio.theguardian.tv/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/10/31/SonataFminorop2no1.mp3

[felipe717]

Beethoven wrote repeats, required to be able to call it sonata form, but he himself did many things that were not custom and went against what he had written. If you have good reason to break existing convention of not repeating and you can make your rendition interesting, do it.
P.S.: Do you know this interesting lecture by András Schiff about this sonata?
https://audio.theguardian.tv/sys-audio/Arts/Culture/2006/10/31/SonataFminorop2no1.mp3

I thought that in the Sonata form there was no repetition after the exposition (and that the exposition was the only one to be repeated). õ-o
You said that Richter doesn't play the repeats, but in these videos:

He does play the repeats. '-'
I've already heard the lectures by Schiff, but I don't remember if he talked about these two repeats in Op.2/1
I don't know, my intuition says I mustn't repeat, but my logic and conviction says the opposite... -.- I'm in a stalemate.

[dima_76557]

You said that Richter doesn't play the repeats, but in these videos:

He does play the repeats. '-'

Sorry I can not listen now. Speakers on computer broken. I remember in studio recording he did not repeat but maybe I am wrong. If Richter repeats and Arrau repeats, I would also repeat, but you should listen intuition. There must be good reason why others do not repeat. Are you without teacher? Where are you going to play this sonata? This may be important for what you have to do.

[lostinidlewonder]

... If Richter repeats and Arrau repeats, I would also repeat....

So don't worry what the composer himself wrote just copy what the performers do, that trumps the composers marks?

In examinations such as AMEB you rarely have to do the repeats unless a piece is based on multiple repetition of small amounts of bars. In public performance generally we do all the repeat marks though some might choose not to do repeats so they can fit more into their program and do so because of a time issue more so than a creativity choice.

[dima_76557]

So don't worry what the composer himself wrote just copy what the performers do, that trumps the composers marks?

We have written instructions by composer and we have convention. Different situations may require different approaches, yes.

[lostinidlewonder]

It was just interesting you said if those two performers repeated you would repeat as if it is more convincing than what the composer himself wrote.

[dima_76557]

It was just interesting you said if those two performers repeated you would repeat as if it is more convincing that what the composer himself wrote.

My reason for those two: they are known architects, craftsmen of music who always emphasize structure of what they play, and I trust them. If I have doubts, I consult such recordings to help my decision.

[felipe717]

It was just interesting you said if those two performers repeated you would repeat as if it is more convincing that what the composer himself wrote.

But didn't Beethoven indeed wrote these repeats? I may be wrong, but from what I know, in the 1st edition there are these two repeats, and Beethoven was extremely rigid and strict about the 1st editions, that's why many people trust in the urtext editions, because they would be the "appropiate" according to Beethoven's wishes (this is just my knowledge about it, but I may be wrong).
I thoght Beethoven did write these repeats...

[lostinidlewonder]

But didn't Beethoven indeed wrote these repeats?

He did and a better reason to repeat.

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

Beethoven never performed his sonatas in public. Therefore, there is no way know for sure.

[pianist1976]

Beethoven never performed his sonatas in public.

Just another gratuitous comment based on nothing.

[j_menz]

Beethoven never performed his sonatas in public. Therefore, there is no way know for sure.

He most certainly did, at least the earlier ones.