Open WTC

[ajspiano]

Hi all,

This isn't the best board for this request but it will need some exposure or it will never happen.

I've been tirelessly searching for a public domain version of the WTC (and sinfonias) in open score - meaning that each voice is on a separate staff. Doesn't exist. I want a PD version because I want to be able to hand out copies to students without violating copyrights.

Anyway - I really want it and I've come to the conclusion that I am going to have to make it myself. The brilliant thing about doing it myself is of course that there will ultimately be cool things such as the raw editable score files so I can print up versions urtext versions as well as different edited versions on top of the open score versions.

Obviously a big task..

I'm wondering if anyone would be willing to collaborate and help get the notes in for the whole set (one P & F each say?) ..?? So that the WTC would be available as musicxml or musescore files for free, effectively making it totally open source and making a it possible for people to access some great teaching/learning tools, such as the open score version as well as some extended ideas like the ones below..

...it would be cool to have recordings of the voices in each fugue as separate entities...  so that one could play a single voice along to a recording of all the other voices for example.

...skeleton versions of the WTC scores where composition/improvisation students could "fill in" the missing parts..

I would be happy to host the files, and they could be added to IMSLP I think too.
..............

It may be relevant to add that the WTC is available for free in lilypond format, but this is not easily manipulated by me or anyone who hasnt undergone the lilypond learning curve.. its also not yet possible to convert lilypond files to music xml it seems.

[j_menz]

Happy to help subject to having access to the program.

Can't Lilypond export to midi, which can then be converted to XML? I mean, since it's still going to have to be heavily edited, it really only needs the notes entered anyway, rather than the rest of what Lilypond has (and which causes it the problems in doing the conversion itself).?

[ajspiano]

Happy to help subject to having access to the program.

Can't Lilypond export to midi, which can then be converted to XML? I mean, since it's still going to have to be heavily edited, it really only needs the notes entered anyway, rather than the rest of what Lilypond has (and which causes it the problems in doing the conversion itself).?

Musescore is free/open source - easy to get a hold of.

MIDI presents all kinds of problems, its probably not far off being as much work as totally redoing everything because there will be problems on import with note values and with voices being properly distinguishable.

The free stuff is here
https://www.mutopiaproject.org/cgibin/make-table.cgi?collection=bachwtk&preview=1

I've tried importing the midi's to musescore and its a mess.

EDIT:
The other possibility is photoscore.. I'm not at all familiar with how well that works though, and it costs ~$400.

[birba]

You guys are speaking greek to me (which would probably be easier to understand), but i would like to participate as well.  It's a great idea!  But with my computer skills...

[ajspiano]

You guys are speaking greek to me (which would probably be easier to understand), but i would like to participate as well.  It's a great idea!  But with my computer skills...

I don't think musescore is that hard to operate given a bit of fiddling..  especially when all we are talking about doing initially is entering notes, not fingerings and other editors markings, though there may be a bit of a learning curve getting everything into separate voices..   

..though we could do it in open score initially, and have the software condense that to a regular version to go with it..  rather than making an exact copy of a score and extracting each voice.

That said, I think that whatever anyone submitted would need to be proof read by at least a few people, and you could certainly do that.

[ajspiano]

I was also able to find this..

https://static.musescore.com/89742/f0bdc1d951/score.mscz

Looks like it contains the first two P & F's..   it will have to be checked though..  I think I may be able to find a 1 or 2 more of the fugues too.

you can get musescore here.
https://musescore.org

[outin]

Musescore is easy to use if one is used to using different kinds of open source programs, it took me about 15 minutes to get the idea.
But writing notes is rather slow and I assume there are quite a few of them in the Bach fugues...

Anyway, something like this could be useful practice for my reading problems so I could give it a try. As long as I don't need to play the thing...

[ajspiano]

But writing notes is rather slow

On the keyboard -

The letter "n" switches on and off note input.
numbers determine the note value
the respective letter names input the notes
Ctrl + Up or Down arrows move the input note up or down by an octave.
number "0" inputs a rest of the current set note value

..

there is more, but that is sufficient to bolster speed by quite a fair amount once you get it down...  you can also set your own in the preferences.

GO!! 

[nick_op]

Lilypond is not so difficult to learn if you're willing to get stuck in, but WTC fugues are probably not the place to start.

ajspiano - I'm happy to do some work on this project - just let me know which piece you want me to start with (so we're not overlapping with work). I'd be working in Lilypond since I find it so much quicker and easier to edit than any other program.

Can you link the Lilypond WTC that you already found? Edit: Just spotted the link earlier in the thread.

[outin]

On the keyboard -

The letter "n" switches on and off note input.
numbers determine the note value
the respective letter names input the notes
Ctrl + Up or Down arrows move the input note up or down by an octave.
number "0" inputs a rest of the current set note value

I have always had a really hard time learning to remember key commands... partly because I use so many different kinds of programs daily and partly because I just don't remember simple things like that. And I would need to remember the names of the notes as well...

But I guess after a voice or two those might stick 

[ajspiano]

Lilypond is not so difficult to learn if you're willing to get stuck in, but WTC fugues are probably not the place to start.

ajspiano - I'm happy to do some work on this project - just let me know which piece you want me to start with (so we're not overlapping with work). I'd be working in Lilypond since I find it so much quicker and easier to edit than any other program.

Can you link the Lilypond WTC that you already found? Edit: Just spotted the link earlier in the thread.

Any piece is fine I guess, I haven't started on it yet myself... I guess if anyone is going to work on a particular piece they can name it first, and observers/participants should just not do any piece already listed in the thread. I'll add to the OP whatever someone has said they'll do.

If you know what you're doing I would imagine you could possibly separate the voices relatively quickly in lilypond since we already have free files? I kind of still want a musescore or xml file since I while I probably could manage fine in lilypond I haven't yet learnt it and am comfortable with what I already know..(and would rather not have to spend time learning software when I could learn a prelude and fugue) still, I guess there's no time like the present to learn something new.. and I can hardly ignore all the time that would be saved having all the notes entered already..  I am frustrated though that there isn't yet any way to covert .ly files into another format, perhaps that day will come soon.

[lloyd_cdb]

I'd be happy to help After June 1. Also once some examples are posted... 

[costicina]

Perhaps I didn't get the point : we are supposed to re-write a P&F or a sinfonia with separate scores for every voice?
If so, maybe a program like Personal composer would do?
Let me know, I'll be glad to contribute as far as I can...

[nick_op]

Any piece is fine I guess, I haven't started on it yet myself... I guess if anyone is going to work on a particular piece they can name it first, and observers/participants should just not do any piece already listed in the thread. I'll add to the OP whatever someone has said they'll do.

OK, I'll take Fugue number 1 from Book 1 to start with. Might be a good opportunity to learn it, too. I'm guessing you just want standard treble and bass clefs, no c-clefs or the transposed treble clef used in standard open score?

If you know what you're doing I would imagine you could possibly separate the voices relatively quickly in lilypond since we already have free files?

Absolutely, it should not take long at all.

I kind of still want a musescore or xml file since I while I probably could manage fine in lilypond I haven't yet learnt it and am comfortable with what I already know..(and would rather not have to spend time learning software when I could learn a prelude and fugue) still, I guess there's no time like the present to learn something new.. and I can hardly ignore all the time that would be saved having all the notes entered already..  I am frustrated though that there isn't yet any way to covert .ly files into another format, perhaps that day will come soon.

The manuals on the Lilypond site are great. If you do decide to learn how to use it then feel free to PM me any questions, I'll be happy to help.

[ajspiano]

For anyone who is interested in an example -
IMSLP has a 3 of the fugues in open score as a pdf file.. here is a link to one of them..
https://javanese.imslp.info/files/imglnks/usimg/1/1a/IMSLP99493-PMLP05948-WTC_Book_1_Fuga_4_Open_Score.pdf

These are a good start, but I personally am quite drawn to the idea of having public domain engraving files so that I can take parts out, or add fingerings, my own general editorial marks, analysis etc..

I will probably bite the bullet and learn to use lilypond since its arguably 95% done already in that format so far as having a raw open score, other ideas will still take time to put together. Lilypond scores are also pretty damn good looking..

..........

I'm guessing you just want standard treble and bass clefs, no c-clefs or the transposed treble clef used in standard open score?

I think so, but in saying that - part of the reason having engraving files is important is to make it freely editable by anyone - so if someone wants to put use alternate clefs they can do that with relative ease..

How easy is it to change clef, or transpose etc in lilypond? can you run a filter on the file and do it automatically or do you have to rewrite all the notes yourself?

[outin]

Lilypond is new to me. Just did some browsing and from what I saw in Mutopia the scores do look better than what I can produce with Musescore. I cannot make heavy enough note heads with Musescore and that is a problem for my reading. So I think I'll download this one and dig deeper...Thanks for the tip 

[nick_op]

How easy is it to change clef, or transpose etc in lilypond? can you run a filter on the file and do it automatically or do you have to rewrite all the notes yourself?

Clef changes are really simple, they look like this:

\clef bass

where after the \clef command you can have treble; bass; alto; etc.

Transposition can be done by enclosing the existing notes in a \transpose block and changing the key signature. It's a quick process if the source file is set up efficiently (which the one I've converted was).