at what age does piano practice become rehersals

[beethovenopus2no3movt2]

The American Classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz described his time alone with his instrument as "no longer practice but rehersal." I guess there comes a time in every young piano students life when they reach a certain point of musical maturity and when they are interested in different interpretations of their own playing. Glenn Gould became widely known for his interpretations of the Goldberg Variations by Bach. However, many of his Chopin interpretations remain weak against, perhaps, the mightiest interpreter of Chopin, which was Arthur Rubenstein. This does not mean he did not play the Chopin pieces he selected well. They are played beautifully! However, Glenn Gould in an interview said of Chopin's music that it is soon forgotten after one has played it stating "music goes right out the other ear." In this regard, Glenn Gould's interpretation of Chopin's works possibly lacked the same sentiment of a Rubenstein recording. In my opinion this is because they turned piano practice into rehersal. What do you think?

[pianist1976]

I think that age usually comes when one is mature enough to stop flooding a forum with crap.

[ade16]

The American Classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz described his time alone with his instrument as "no longer practice but rehersal." I guess there comes a time in every young piano students life when they reach a certain point of musical maturity and when they are interested in different interpretations of their own playing. Glenn Gould became widely known for his interpretations of the Goldberg Variations by Bach. However, many of his Chopin interpretations remain weak against, perhaps, the mightiest interpreter of Chopin, which was Arthur Rubenstein. This does not mean he did not play the Chopin pieces he selected well. They are played beautifully! However, Glenn Gould in an interview said of Chopin's music that it is soon forgotten after one has played it stating "music goes right out the other ear." In this regard, Glenn Gould's interpretation of Chopin's works possibly lacked the same sentiment of a Rubenstein recording. In my opinion this is because they turned piano practice into rehersal. What do you think?

Thanks for that, very interesting! I know Gould's 1955 and 1981 recordings of the Goldberg variations very well. They are very different, the later recording being far less energetic and more laid back. As far as Chopin is concerned, I have a vast number of recordings on LP and on my iPod. I have loved his music ever since I heard a record my dad used to play a lot; a Chopin Recital by Stefan Askenase (a teacher of Martha Argerich). I was six years of age when I first heard it and that was 48 years ago. Since then I have become very familar with recordings of Chopin's music by many, many pianists, and have attended many recitals and concerts including the concertos and other works for piano and orchestra.
(I remember getting into a playground argument with another boy who liked music who insisted that Chopin had written 2 symphonies. I pointed out that Chopin never wrote symphonies and that the chap was probably thinking of Chopin's two piano concertos. He never did accept that, even when I showed it to him in a book!)
I am a great fan of the following pianists who I have tended to use as role models when I have been learning works by Chopin, including the latest piece I am trying to polish to performance standard; the Fantasie in F minor Op.49. I have compared performances of this work, for example, by several of the following pianists.

Forgive me if I have spelt some names slightly wrong, I am doing this from memory!

Vladimir Ashkenazy, Krystian Zimermann, Maurizio Pollini, Peter Katin, Peter Frankl, Artur Rubinstein (as you say), Stefan Askenase (largely perhaps because I grew up with this LP which I eventually inherited from my late father - I have since downloaded many more Askenase recordings from iTunes - I guess I've got used to his interpretations of the Polonaise in A flat Op.53, Waltz in A flat Op.34 No.1 etc having been my very first experience of this music at a very early age!)
There are many others, but these stand out for me personally. Actually, I have not come across any Chopin by Glenn Gould. I need to have a hunt around, I am now curious! I have a recording of him playing some Beethoven variations and bagatelles. You can faintly hear him singing along to the music in the background, fairly typical and one of his trademarks.

Anyway, thanks for your very interesting post on this.

Regards
Ade.

[ade16]

I think that age usually comes when one is mature enough to stop flooding a forum with crap.

Well now, it is extremely clear to me, judging from your comment, that you yourself have not yet reached the level of maturity required in order to prevent you from making completely unhelpful and pointless comments, and at the expense of others!

There are other areas of this forum where you could have more appropriately placed this remark, assuming you really felt the need to; and furthermore, you would more than likely get a lot more of the same 'crap' thrown back in your face. (It was you who raised the issue of flooding the forum with 'crap'!) I strayed into one of those areas when I first joined this piano forum, just out of curiosity. I posted a relatively polite comment, compared to your's anyway, and I got mauled!!!

This area on 'Performance' is not the appropriate place to post facetious and sarcastic comments in my opinion, not unless you can at least back them up with reasons, or at least make an effort to agree or disagree with the original post. Throw away comments very often only serve to annoy and upset people.

If you cannot respond respectfully to someone else's post, which they have clearly put a lot of thought and effort into, then you can think what you like, but you don't have to say it! I thought your post was extremely rude and disrespectful actually. I put a lot of thought and time into my response to the original question, about the difference between practice and rehearsal, linked to a comment from Horowitz, mentioned in the original post. Do you have any thoughts on this; you know, actually linked to the question that was raised???  

If your comment was not aimed exclusively at the first post in this section, why then have you placed it here? Because that's the way it reads to me.

Alternatively, if it was only meant in jest, well I'm sorry, but you have miscalculated the tone in which it came across! Consequently, if you feel that your comment has been misunderstood and taken the wrong way, then this is your chance to put the record straight and to explain far more clearly what you actually meant to say. In the relatively short time that I have been a member of this forum I have really enjoyed discussing important issues in relation to the piano; and I have only been annoyed by the occasional rude comment that has cropped up like yours. Thankfully, they seem to be quite rare.

There, I've said it!

[pianist1976]

@adele16, before bashing me, please read all the posts this beethovenopuswhatever member wrote. Unfortunately you lost the one s/he asked if some forum member tried to play piano with his penis (it was deleted by admins).

Speaking about crap, almost all the info s/he placed on the first post of this thread is erroneous. You are thanking this guy/gal for placing missleading information. It's not the first time s/he does it. I think it's intentional and that really upsets me.

You must know it: you are defending a troll.

[ade16]

Clearly I'm caught up in the middle of something here! If indeed what you are saying is true, then it is not a question of my losing the alleged post you refer to; I never saw it in the first place, and I am not likely to if it was deleted by admin. (The so called moderators?)

I judge people as I find them, and I am a very trusting person, particularly on a site like this one, I would hope?   (Not so with Facebook and Twitter which cause so many problems in my neck of the woods, London, England; which is why I never use them!)

I trust this site (I think ) and I read this first post in this section in all good faith. It is not all bogus because I can verify at least some of the facts actually; including Rubinstein as a great Chopin interpreter, and the photo of Horowitz is genuine; also, true is the reference to Glenn Gould's versions of the Bach Goldberg variations (I know them well!)

If SOME of this post is made up, like the Horowitz quote, which I can't verify yet (but I will); then, that is really sad, and as we say in London, I've been made to look like a right plonker!

By the way my name is Ade (Not Adele, she's a very successful singer from England who sang the theme song for the latest James Bond Film 'Skyfall') - I'm a bloke!

Anyway, I will do my homework, and if I can confirm that some of the post by this 'Beethoven...' is made up then I'll get back to you. In the meantime I can confirm that some of it at least is genuine, it is not all made up crap as you suggest!   Maybe this 'naughty person' has turned over a new leaf? I don't have the whole back story, I can only judge
a post on face value; and I am certainly not going to condemn somebody for something really stupid and childish they did in the past that was nothing to do with me. That does not mean I am defending that kind of behaviour either.

Anything to say about any of this Beethovenopus2no3movement2?  (I know Beethoven's sonatas well, and I assume that you can actually play this one? What key is it in again? Difficult movement, how do you find it? Have you tried the other movements of this sonata? They're even more tricky!) 

[birba]

I could have sworn you were female, too.  Don't know why.   I guess it was the "ade" name.
But I, too, was duped by this op2 no 2 or whatever his name is.  I was about to ask him exactly what he meant about this "practise becomes rehearsal", but I noticed he never even added another comment in this thread, and I got suspicious....

[pianist1976]

Sorry, pushed the reply button accidentally.

(please, delete).

[andreslr6]

I could have sworn you were female, too.  Don't know why.   I guess it was the "ade" name.
But I, too, was duped by this op2 no 2 or whatever his name is.  I was about to ask him exactly what he meant about this "practise becomes rehearsal", but I noticed he never even added another comment in this thread, and I got suspicious....

I think I understood the question of the tittle but it should have been "at what time does practicing piano is no longer needed?".

Just to continue with GG, he later said he no longer practicde piano and instead learned new music and recovered old repertoire by just reading the sheet music and/or studying it just inside of his head, this of course after a complete youth of practicing like 10 hours every day.

My teacher's teacher is exactly at this stage as well, he's almost 60 now, but during his 20s he was very well known pianist in my country and an active concert pianist in Europe, he won a lot of international competitions, he got 5th place I think in the Arthur Rubinstein in the 70s, among other competitions; but anyways, he was a very very active pianist and is a very talented musician, but then he got tired of the concert life and now teaches only and accompanies singers and other students in my school, and once in a while he gives a solo recital, BUT... he doesn't have a piano in his house... so you wonder, how come he play that good (really really good, he could have easily been another famous Vladimir Horowitz or Glenn Gould, etc.) and not have a piano where he practices 10 hours everyday?? and the answer is just that, because he already "beat" that level, he spend at least a good 10 years practicing 10 hours every single day, so to him the keyboard is really just an extension of his body and there's no need to go and sit at a piano to learn a new piece or to remember an old one, you only see him practicing a few minutes those few little segments of a piece that are really hard and then he's done.

A quick anecdote, last semester I was going to play Prokofiev's 1st concerto in my exam with my teacher at the 2nd piano, then, my teacher's teacher (the guy from the previous paragraph) stayed to listen and my teacher got this idea "hey, my student is going to play Proko's 1st, can you play the 2nd piano for me? I want to listen to it and you owe me this favor, you were supposed to accompany my students and you played this concerto with one of your students last semester" and he agreed, 1 hour before playing it, without rehearsing with me nor practicing the 2nd piano in at least 6 months, he just took the sheet and sat in a corner reading the music. When it was time we both sat down, he just asked me not to play it way too fast because we never rehearsed (we were both super nervous of course and ended up playing it super fast anyways haha), and he did a really amazing job, all because of experience. Of course, he then got a little mad at my teacher and told him not to do that to him again haha, but it was a good challenge. My teacher also regretted his decision as well because the 3 of us took a very arrogant and cocky attitude, but at least it's something we can say we know how it feels .

[ade16]

I could have sworn you were female, too.  Don't know why.   I guess it was the "ade" name.
But I, too, was duped by this op2 no 2 or whatever his name is.  I was about to ask him exactly what he meant about this "practise becomes rehearsal", but I noticed he never even added another comment in this thread, and I got suspicious....

Ade is short for Adrian or sometimes Adrienne!

Anyway, I have been doing some homework and picking apart the post by this Beethoven person.
A bit that bothered me was that, despite my long experience of Chopin's music, I was not aware of any recordings by Glenn Gould. However, having checked on i tunes, he did a few things, eg. Sonata no.3 in B minor; although he was normally associated with Bach, Beethoven and Mozart.

I have not yet been able to track down the Horowitz quote or the Gould one about Chopin; however, that does not necessarily mean of course that they did not say these things. Most of the post seems to be genuine to me, including the reference to the Goldberg Variations.

I am therefore at a loss and a bit confused as to why this post seems pretty genuine on the one hand, yet this person seems to have a reputation for deception. Have I been duped, partly duped, or not at all on this particular occasion?   I find it very hard to understand a motive behind this? I normally smell a rat when it comes to bogus information. But on this occasion it seems pretty innocuous, even though at this stage I cannot track down the actual quotes. Also, the photo of Horowitz is genuine, indeed quite famous. The distinction between practice and rehearsal is nothing new. In practice you pull pieces apart analytically, whereas in rehearsal you run through the complete compositions.

I am now curious to have a look at some other posts or responses to posts from Beethoven!  

[ade16]

I think I understood the question of the tittle but it should have been "at what time does practicing piano is no longer needed?".

Just to continue with GG, he later said he no longer practicde piano and instead learned new music and recovered old repertoire by just reading the sheet music and/or studying it just inside of his head, this of course after a complete youth of practicing like 10 hours every day.

My teacher's teacher is exactly at this stage as well, he's almost 60 now, but during his 20s he was very well known pianist in my country and an active concert pianist in Europe, he won a lot of international competitions, he got 5th place I think in the Arthur Rubinstein in the 70s, among other competitions; but anyways, he was a very very active pianist and is a very talented musician, but then he got tired of the concert life and now teaches only and accompanies singers and other students in my school, and once in a while he gives a solo recital, BUT... he doesn't have a piano in his house... so you wonder, how come he play that good (really really good, he could have easily been another famous Vladimir Horowitz or Glenn Gould, etc.) and not have a piano where he practices 10 hours everyday?? and the answer is just that, because he already "beat" that level, he spend at least a good 10 years practicing 10 hours every single day, so to him the keyboard is really just an extension of his body and there's no need to go and sit at a piano to learn a new piece or to remember an old one, you only see him practicing a few minutes those few little segments of a piece that are really hard and then he's done.

A quick anecdote, last semester I was going to play Prokofiev's 1st concerto in my exam with my teacher at the 2nd piano, then, my teacher's teacher (the guy from the previous paragraph) stayed to listen and my teacher got this idea "hey, my student is going to play Proko's 1st, can you play the 2nd piano for me? I want to listen to it and you owe me this favor, you were supposed to accompany my students and you played this concerto with one of your students last semester" and he agreed, 1 hour before playing it, without rehearsing with me nor practicing the 2nd piano in at least 6 months, he just took the sheet and sat in a corner reading the music. When it was time we both sat down, he just asked me not to play it way too fast because we never rehearsed (we were both super nervous of course and ended up playing it super fast anyways haha), and he did a really amazing job, all because of experience. Of course, he then got a little mad at my teacher and told him not to do that to him again haha, but it was a good challenge. My teacher also regretted his decision as well because the 3 of us took a very arrogant and cocky attitude, but at least it's something we can say we know how it feels .

Thank you for this, it is the kind of post this piano forum should be about! Namely, enjoying sharing musical ideas, experience, amusing anecdotes etc 

[pianist1976]

This beethovenwhatever person heard some things and then mixed all of them, mixturing truths, half truths and lies. It's half true that Horowitz was American (althought is better say he was Russian-American as he got later this nationality). It's true that he said that he always rehearsed instead of practicing but this is different than saying that he practiced and from some age he rehearsed.

But the biggest lie is Chopin interpreted by Gould. Beethovenopus[...] talks about "many" Chopin interpretations but actually Gould only recorded one work of this composer: the 3rd sonata. So unless this Beethovenopus guy was at GG's home, it's impossible s/he listened to other works renditions. There is an unofficial home recording of etude Op 10 no. 2 but that's all. ( "Conversations with GG" by Jonathan Cott, a very authoritative book, has a complete list of recordings and repertoire by Gould).

S/he also misspelled twice Rubinstein (calling him Rubenstein) and the stament "probably the mightiest interpreter of Chopin" is just an opinion, not a proven fact as there's not a general consensus. I doubt the authenticity of any of the other quotes. I read staments of Gould about Chopin from "Conversations with GG" and they sound different to those presented by this Beetwhatever. Anyway if s/he shows us the sources I will accept it and I will shut up.

"In my opinion this is because they turned piano practice into rehersal". Random thought IMHO.

(damned, I eat the beethwhatever bait. Never feed the troll they say...   )

[ade16]

This beethovenwhatever person heard some things and then mixed all of them, mixturing truths, half truths and lies. It's half true that Horowitz was American (althought is better say he was Russian-American as he got later this nationality). It's true that he said that he always rehearsed instead of practicing but this is different than saying that he practiced and from some age he rehearsed.

But the biggest lie is Chopin interpreted by Gould. Beethovenopus[...] talks about "many" Chopin interpretations but actually Gould only recorded one work of this composer: the 3rd sonata. So unless this Beethovenopus guy was at GG's home, it's impossible s/he listened to other works renditions. There is an unofficial home recording of etude Op 10 no. 2 but that's all. ( "Conversations with GG" by Jonathan Cott, a very authoritative book, has a complete list of recordings and repertoire by Gould).

S/he also misspelled twice Rubinstein (calling him Rubenstein) and the stament "probably the mightiest interpreter of Chopin" is just an opinion, not a proven fact as there's not a general consensus. I doubt the authenticity of any of the other quotes. I read staments of Gould about Chopin from "Conversations with GG" and they sound different to those presented by this Beetwhatever. Anyway if s/he shows us the sources I will accept it and I will shut up.

"In my opinion this is because they turned piano practice into rehersal". Random thought IMHO.

(damned, I eat the beethwhatever bait. Never feed the troll they say...   )

Now you really are being pedantic! Getting upset about minor details like the precise nationality of Horowitz and wrongly spelling Rubinstein, twice!. Does it really matter? Also, we all mistakenly attribute sayings and quotations to the wrong person sometimes. Sayings have, for example, been attributed to Shakespeare just because they are famous, when in fact it was someone else that said it. They make good quiz questions, who said whatever?

You obviously have got it in for this Beethoven............ Just take a step back and concentrate on more important matters. Life is too short. This is a piano forum isn't? Well then, let's talk piano!
Anyway, somehow I think this Beethoven... character will keep clear of us, as they must now know from our recent posts we are highly suspicious of their antics! We have an expression in England, "Their ears must be burning"; in other words, they must know people are talking about them!
If I were Beethoven....... I'd actually be very careful from now on what I posted next, where and when!!!  

[Bob]

I don't but it. Practicing is on your own, even if it's practicing performing.  I would think that's the difference -- practicing to build up skills vs. practicing the performance of piece when you can pretty much sight-read anything.

I'm thinking you have to have other people for it to be a rehearsal.  And an upcoming performance is implied.

[pianist1976]

@Ade16: I don't care about your opinion. I'm not upset, I really don't give a damn for you nor the Beethoven guy. If you are happy deffending a troll and believing that everything written in a forum is true just because a guy attaches a photo taken from Wikipedia, it's great. You are the one who has got on me but I don't have a problem. You said something quite true: I have much more important things to do than arguing with you.

[ade16]

@Ade16: I don't care about your opinion. I'm not upset, I really don't give a damn for you nor the Beethoven guy. If you are happy deffending a troll and believing that everything written in a forum is true just because a guy attaches a photo taken from Wikipedia, it's great. You are the one who has got on me but I don't have a problem. You said something quite true: I have much more important things to do than arguing with you.

Ok, thats fine, if that's how you feel. However, let me make it absolutely clear that I am not defending this Beethoven............ Indeed, whoever they are, they have gone very quiet I have noticed, and others have noticed this too. I wonder why? They didn't ever answer my question put to them as to whether they actually play the sonata referred to in the name they have adopted. That is Opus 2 no.3 movement 2; indeed, can this person even play Beethoven? Given their attitude and given what you have said they have done in the past, which sounds disgraceful, I doubt very much they can do much more than ask a difficult and controversial question, then leave the rest of us to argue over it! They have certainly gone quiet; also in another section about practising scales, a really good debate actually which they have neither contributed to, nor given feedback to any of us regarding our responses to the original question they had raised.

I have been looking at this Beethoven person's posts all over the place and realise I probably took the bait too! So that when I was 'bashing' you for what I perceived as a rude post, I did not have any knowledge of this person's attitude at that point.

A request however, please do not compare me to this Beethovenopus??? idiot: "I really don't give a damn for you nor the Beethoven guy" All I have done is express some opinions. What thay have done, however, is in a completely different league and incredibly immature. I also object to them having taken the name of probably the greatest composer in history! Ludwig van Beethoven. I can just imagine what he might have said!

By the way, I do not believe everything I read, in a forum, book, newspaper, magazine or anywhere else. If anything, at my age I have learned to question everything, however I did not smell a rat with this original post about Horowitz, so I was duped! This has only made me, sad to say, even more suspicious and wary of this piano forum.

If you are out there Beethovenopus2no3mov2, or whatever your name is, do you have the courage to join this discussion? Or have you just gone into hiding under a new persona? I know you have  been reading all these posts, you can't resist can you?

[ade16]

The American Classical pianist Vladimir Horowitz described his time alone with his instrument as "no longer practice but rehersal." I guess there comes a time in every young piano students life when they reach a certain point of musical maturity and when they are interested in different interpretations of their own playing. Glenn Gould became widely known for his interpretations of the Goldberg Variations by Bach. However, many of his Chopin interpretations remain weak against, perhaps, the mightiest interpreter of Chopin, which was Arthur Rubenstein. This does not mean he did not play the Chopin pieces he selected well. They are played beautifully! However, Glenn Gould in an interview said of Chopin's music that it is soon forgotten after one has played it stating "music goes right out the other ear." In this regard, Glenn Gould's interpretation of Chopin's works possibly lacked the same sentiment of a Rubenstein recording. In my opinion this is because they turned piano practice into rehersal. What do you think?

Why did you not respond to my post which was in response to your original question?
I am beginning to realise now that you seem to be very good at asking very open ended questions but not contributing very much, if anything at all, to the wider discussion yourself! You never even seem to respond to anyone else's posts which have arisen from your tantalizing questions!!!