Which Piano is best for my son?

[fresh1109]

So I have been paying for piano lessons for my son for about 2 years and he's on grade 3. So the point is we use a digital piano and unfortunately, an error occurred. The sound went all funny and the function didn't work. And quite recently, he said he'd really like a new piano too. Now that we need one, we are all doing research about it. My son LOVES playing the piano. He would spend so much time practicing. He would search up the chords and play them as he sings. He loves music.

I really want to get him an upright since a good second-handed one is affordable and have a reasonable sound. If I feel like he really is going to be serious about music, I might go for a small grand or baby grand (we have the space and money) that will last his whole lifetime.

So we live in Thailand where it's quite hot and very rainy at times so how will pianos get affected. And also I have a daughter who's on grade 7 but she's not into music too much. She's going to university soon too.

We have narrowed down our choices to the Kawai K8, Yamaha U1, Yamaha U2, Yamaha U3, Kawai K3. Do you think Kawai K8 or K3 is better? Please rank all these piano.

Also we might get him a baby grand (as I said) and we are looking into the Yamaha G2E. One problem with that is that it has only 2 pedals. It has the uno corda and sustain but not the middle one. Will this be a problem? Do you need the middle one?

That's pretty much it. So if you answer all these questions, that would be nice.
Thanks in advance! 

[hfmadopter]

Acoustic pianos like to live in a condition of 45-50% humidity. The more closely you can maintain that in it's living space the better it will treat you. Hot to cold and cold to hot doesn't effect an acoustic piano as much as large swings in humidity will. People associate the temp change as the culprit but really in certain climates it's just much drier in the winter than in the summer in terms of relative humidity. Often to air condition in the summer and humidify in the winter will go a long ways to curing the issue in that case.

Digital pianos aren't effected in this way, though I suppose sustained 90+% humid conditions in the summer couldn't be a very good thing for a digital piano and electronics in general.

As to what to buy and if money is not an issue, then get the kids opinions on the matter. They may have a desire and they will play what they feel most comfortable at the most. Since your son enjoyed the digital so, you wouldn't want to curb that desire by buying a piano that doesn't interest him. In the daughters case, same thing, perhaps the digital wasn't of so much interest. A new piano may spark a new interest in her. One never knows !

What you have seleced for acoustics are all good choices. Its possibly worth knowing that some Kawai's have a heavier action than some Yamaha's. It's down to individual taste, some folk lkes the Kawai's just because of the action. Kawai's in general have a slightly warmer tone than Yamaha uprights do but don't take that as a blanket statement, try the exact instrument you are thinking of purchasing and judge from that not from a forum post.

I personally am not a fan of upright pianos, in general a grand not only looks better ( you said you have the space) and is easier to tune ( I tune my own piano) but the action is finer, be that heavy or light it's just more direct and more natural feeling with only a few exceptional uipright actions out there that might compare, IMO... That said, to me, a grand approaching 6 ft. in length gives fine tone. I have no desire to own a grand in under the 5'6" or even 5'8" range but you need to buy according to how sound will fill your room. A grand too small can be out toned by a larger upright. However, you have options with the grand in how it is played ( top down, top fully up or someplace in between).



Digital vs acoustic.

Resonance is the reign of the acoustic. Digitals do not resonate the same. That's not to say digitals are bad, it's just a fact. However, digitals have other note worthy features. They don't require tuning and often can play whole symphonies with added sound features. An upper end digital is no cheap little dink donk keyboard, it's a true instrument.

You may want to consider a digital grand too !

Acoustics require care. A minimum of an annual tuning if not more tunings. Some dusting and polishing. If you have cats and a grand piano, close it up at night. Nothing resonates like a nice sized, good quality grand piano though !

[fresh1109]

Thanks a lot for a very detailed answer.

Do you think not having the middle key is a big disadvantage or not really?
Would the Yamaha G2E (173 cm) give a nice sound?

If we do have to go with an upright which one would you recommend (the ones listed)?

Sorry for adding a bunch new questions but you really helped me with my decision.
And my son did admit he would prefer an actual piano, not a digital one.

What do you think about

"Making music on a quality instrument motivates and keeps the child interested in music. If you are serious about your child's musical success, a quality piano would be best"

Would you say that's true?

[hfmadopter]

"Making music on a quality instrument motivates and keeps the child interested in music. If you are serious about your child's musical success, a quality piano would be best"

Would you say that's true?

Playing an inferior instrument is of course less gratifying than playing a quality instrument.

Sound of any instrument is subjective and also subject to the exact instruments tonal character. Not all pianos  of the same model are created equally. Buy the exact one you hear that you like the tone of. Don't assume that because you hear one G model that you like then all the rest will sound the same to you. The same goes for the uprights. Buy the most piano you can get for your budget range is the best suggestion I can make online for you.

There is no one choice, as I said, you have a decent list there. Now you need to go out and investigate those choices with your kids. Have someone who can play well play the various instruments, have your kids play them. Make your choice. If I were given this choice I'd also include a couple more grands to investigate as well as the one that interests you.

It could be said about the pedal situation, what you never have you will never miss ! People do use the middle pedal, I do not, as on my old grand that pedal sustains the bass only and I'm a player who if I had a choice to isolate something from the entire keyboard in sustain, as the right pedal does the entire keyboard, it might be more the treble than bass.. I'm fine with two pedals, others are not. I've been around pianos for 35 years or so and can live without using the middle pedal, so do. I love my grand  and I own a digital as well, I'm using two on the grand where it has three and one pedal on the digital  where it's capable of two.. Though i do intend on buying the two pedal combo for the digital eventually.

[iansinclair]

Just to chime in briefly on the third (centre) pedal.  It's found on some pianos, and not on others, and has very little to do (in its full blown form) with the quality of the instrument.

In its full blown form (there are variations) what it does is sustain those notes -- and only those notes -- which are held down when it is pressed.  This allows one to play a chord, or a low note, and press the centre pedal, then release the keys or key and go on to play something else while that chord or note sustains.  It can be handy, although it is a bit of a crutch in my view.  It can also be quite difficult to get coordinated (hands and feet) particularly in faster passages.  It can also be an unholy headache to get adjusted and working properly if it goes wrong.

On the whole, whether a piano has the middle pedal or not should be a very minor consideration.  That the una corda (left pedal) really does, on an acoustic, shift the hammers or, on a digital, change the tone generation to sound that way, is rather important, though -- that left pedal isn't a "soft" pedal, or at least it's not meant to be -- even though that is exactly what it is on most uprights and spinets.

[hfmadopter]

Good points that I had not covered Ian !

This G2E has very nice sound as far as I'm concerned. However, I don't know if the Queen Ann's version is special, have a listen :      [ Invalid YouTube link ]

He also doesn't play deep into the bass much. The bass is where a larger grand tends to excel.

A larger Estonia piano ( 6'3" vs 5'6" for the Yamaha). Just notice the bass more so than the playing :   

For grins, a 5'7" Steinway M 1921 vintage :  

[fresh1109]

Thanks for adding even more details!

I can't seem to find that many baby grands for a good deal of money. Many are quite bad quality as well (off tune, bad material, etc).

The pianos that I can actually get for a good deal of money are the ones I listed.
G2E-$6538.20
Kawai K8-$2339.99
Yamaha U3-$2064.69

Are these a good deal of money?

So from the K8 and U3, what are YOUR thoughts. I know this is something personal to decide but I want some other experienced people's thoughts as well. I am planning on bringing my child with his piano teacher to play on all these instruments. But I need to gather some facts about them.

And would you think a small grand's worth the extra $$$?

And thanks to Ian for pointing out some good points as well. If you can help with my questions too. THANKS TO ALL OF YOU!

[hfmadopter]

Really I gave out as much opinion as I can give without seeing the instruments in person. Assuming good condition, any of them should be good choices.

The choice between an upright and grand piano is a personal one. For me yes, the grand is well worth the extra money and I already explained why ( easier to tune, control of sound with the top up vs down, finer touch), I too have the space for one and have owned a grand piano since the early 1980's. It is very dependant on condition though.

 However, plenty of religious organizations have used both Kawai and Yamaha uprights, as have also teaching studios ( especially the U series Yamahas in the case of the studios).

As to the videos I posted links to, they were more about hearing the differences in the pianos than those being alternative ones to purchase. Consider that as part of being informed !! If these three pianos that you listed are pretty much your final three choices, then get that teacher and your son and head off to the places where the pianos reside. Let us know how you make out !
David

[quantum]

"Making music on a quality instrument motivates and keeps the child interested in music. If you are serious about your child's musical success, a quality piano would be best"

Would you say that's true?

From a personal perspective, I found such to be true.  As a young piano student, our family did not have the finances to buy a grand.  So I was stuck with small Kawai vertical.  I wouldn't say it was a "bad" piano, just extremely limiting.  For the repertoire I was studying, Chopin Ballades, Scherzos, Etudes, Beethoven Sonatas, etc. that piano could be very frustrating as I felt that the instrument was not responding to all the effort that was being put into the music.  When I would play on my teacher's beautiful Steinway (probably a model L or A) the experience was so much more pleasurable:  I could focus on crafting expression as opposed to coercing the piano to play the notes. 

That small vertical stayed with me through most of my university music studies, and I would say it did have an effect on my motivation towards piano study.  For a time I was seriously considering switching my instrument to clarinet.  For around $2k to $5k one could buy a clarinet of similar caliber to a Steinway Model B (a 7 foot grand).  The prospect of playing an instrument where I did not have to wage a constant battle in order to achieve a desired expression was very attractive. 

Eventually we were able to save up enough finances for a beautiful used Yamaha C3.  I did find that instrument re-sparked my motivation to practice piano.  Still play the clarinet too. 

***

Regarding the middle pedal.  It has various functions depending on the piano.  It may operate a practice mute, it may be a "bass sustain" working like the right pedal but only for a select bass range, or it may be a true sostenuto mechanism holding select keys and operable throughout the entire keyboard.  Sostenuto is usually found on grands, however a select few upper end verticals may have it implemented. 

Various people may find value in each of these features depending on their scenario.  People that need the option of quiet practice may seek the practice mute function.  For me, it is the sostenuto function that is of interest.  I play a lot of 20th/21st century and avant garde music, which may specifically call for the sostenuto in the score.  Having the sostenuto on one's practice instrument is highly useful as it does take a good amount of coordination between hands and feet to get the desired effect.  However, I don't really use the sostenuto pedal when playing standard repertoire such as Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, etc. 

If you are looking at a grand, I would suggest one with a sostenuto as a preferred option.  Most grands do have this so it is not something you need to hunt for, however some entry level grands may not have the middle pedal as sostenuto.  Older grands may only have two pedals.

That being said, I wouldn't say a middle pedal is absolutely essential.  I would rate a finely regulated proper una corda mechanism (left pedal) as more of a necessity than a middle pedal.  One does use the left pedal quite a lot in the gamut of the piano repertoire, and a good una corda can contribute a sublime world of tone to the instrument.  However, if you do foresee a current or future application for the middle pedal it would be wise consider it in your choice of instruments. 

For my own personal choice of piano, I did take into serious consideration the sostenuto.  My interest in the contemporary piano literature was a factor in guiding my own decision towards a piano that had one. 

***

And would you think a small grand's worth the extra $$$?

Without a doubt, yes!  If you can afford a grand and you have the space, choose the grand.  A large vertical will have a fuller tone than a small baby grand.  However, the action on a grand is far superior in many respects to that of a vertical piano. 

I actually find it uncomfortable to play a lot of verticals due to the position of the pedals relative to the keys.  Verticals often have their pedals and bottom cover placed closer to the player.  Thus when I sit in a proper position to place my arms and hands in alignment to the keys, my legs and feet are cramped too close.  If I were to extend my legs to a comfortable length then my arms would be outstretched from the keys.  Of course because of the back over, one can neither extend one's legs further under the piano.  Grands generally have the pedal lyre located farther from the player, so that an adult of average height can comfortably position their arms and hands at the keys and extend their legs to an appropriate position.  There is also no back cover to impede stretching out one's legs under the piano (of course one would not play like that, but it is good to stretch). 

If your son is tall, the position of the pedals relative to the player does become an ergonomic issue.  You want to be comfortable when spending long hours playing the piano. 

[indianajo]

Your son's economic situation has something to do with the choice.  Following high school I went off an engineering school which had a limited selection of badly maintained pianos,  followed by the Army which had extremely badly maintained upright pianos in the various PX and USO clubs.  So I was without access to a piano for nearly 12 years, which was a bit of a loss.  Sometimes I would borrow a key from a church pianist, but churches are usually too public to practice effectively. In a church or officer's club you are always performing, however bad it sounds and however many times you need to repeat the difficult passage.  
Grands, even small ones, to be moved cost four men, a piano board, an 4 wheel dolly, and a ramp or lift truck every time.  The grand would have to stay at the parent's home.   Nor will even a baby grand fit in typical student or young professional housing.  By contrast, a console can be moved by two students in the back of someones car/pickup.  Consoles will make a tight stair turn, and project the music out at the player, not at the floor and right wall like a grand.  
As far as your son's preference of model, I have to say my opinions were rather immature when I was studying age 8 to 14.  There was a time when my band director met me at the music shop to select a new clarinet mouthpiece, because the one that came with my rather nice wood instrument sounded so bad. I really didn't see the difference, although I took his advice.  Now that I've watched hours of video, I realize one could sound like Mozart's friend, or sound like Paul Whiteman's soloist on Rhapsody in Blue,  or sound like Pete Fountain, or sound like Arty Shaw, the styles are quite different.  One's ear needs training also, and as we age there is a lot of experience to be gained that one doesn't have at 14 or 16.  Which player one wants to be depends on one's changing repretoire. Currently I'm thinking of picking up a third piano for my country trailer, a tinkly pre-depression upright, to make Scott Joplin and Fats Waller pieces sound correctly and continue practice during the summer.    
For me, the quality of a piano has as much to do with the evenness of the tone across all notes, the evenness of tone playing softly, and the speed of the action. I run chromatic scales from one end to the other when testing a piano, play soft pieces, and try to play one note as rapidly as possible with two alternating fingers on two different hands.  Many many pianos fail these tests, including my Mother's 1953 Everett that had a bad tonal split changing from two string to three string notes.   However, thankfully, it was fast enough.  I don't have access to the models you mention to test these attributes for you in another hemisphere.  Many beautiful pieces of furniture cannot pass these tests. Another dimension is tuning stability. I have a 1982 Sohmer console I bought at age 31 with 5 ply pin block that needs tuning every three months. I recently bought a 1941 Steinway with a solid pin block that needs tuning every two years. Take your pick.    
A third year student really is not playing repretoire that requires a grand.  Nor in my opinion is loading up a pre-teens joints and muscles with the heavy touch of a grand really a good thing.  Somewhere around age sixteen is good enough for that IMHO. So many young athletes give 110% in their youth and suffer from injuries the rest of their life.  I don't know what injuries might happen to a young grand player, but I know I suffer from arthritis age 62 that was accentuated by improper posture mowing the lawn when I was eleven.  Ergonomics as an occupational specialty was not even invented in 1962, but I could have used some proper ergo training back then.    
In re the third pedal, their is sixth to eighth year repretoire that can use sostenuto.  Before that it is not even useful, IMHO.  As far as access to grands with it, I have recently discovered a very old church piano (not the one that I attend, this one is in another county at the end of an hour bus ride) that has a real sostenuto pedal, and it is quite a revelation! Those impossible half notes in Scott Joplin Magnetic Rag and Pictures At an Exhibition, there is actually a way to do those without having a second person or a third hand!  There is some fairly advanced repretoire that needs sostenuto, and a quieting middle pedal, or a bass notes sustain, are pale imitations.  I never heard of such a thing as notes played only being sustained, until I read it on here.  All the console pianos I've played, none has ever had such a function.  Now if I just had a bigger house, and four friends to move an old grand . . . As Mr. Sinclair points out, sostenuto is rather tricky, it takes a considerable financial committment to piano maintenance to keep one working.  Lets hope your son is always rich and never goes through a period as a young training professional.  

[hfmadopter]

I can't seem to conjure up in my mind that Opo will move their own piano.

However, it might interest you to know that when i worked with the tech in my early years we move some pianos, one of which was my grand into my living room. he had a skid that he made. Really noting more than a 2x10 or there abouts that was carpeted. Along one edge was a rail of about 1x4 also carpeted and that was screwed to the edge of the larger piece. There were four rollers or casters in this . We had a piece of 2x4 slightly longer than the legs of the piano too. take out the action first thing, very easy to remove on a grand. Unpin the top of the piano and lift that off. Strap that skid to the long side of the piano, making sure the edge is flush with the lower edge of the side of the piano ( we used two moving straps). Two guys can easily lift one corner of a 6 ft grand and slip the 2x4 in place of the leg. Take off the leg and lower that corner to the floor on the skid. Prop the other side of the piano on the 2x4 and take off the other leg and roll the body of the piano up on the skid and remove the last leg. Roll the piano where ever you want to move it to.

His skid was home made, I doubt it cost him $125 to make it.

[quantum]

I've seen several professional piano movers in action and they also have skids similar to what you describe.

[jj5594]

The higher the level, the better it is to have an acoustic piano. I've had a kawai fro years now and it has always had a beautiful sound, i would say kawai k8. If you can afford a grand, r-x5 is great. Consider the hybrid yamaha's they're good too.

[keyplayeruk]

Hi There,
To buy a second hand acoustic piano has its problems.  They are hugely affected by humidity and by temperature changes.  Also second hand pianos are less likely to hold their tuning as long as new ones.   No acoustic piano is immune to humidity changes though.
We are sorry to hear your digital piano had a fault.  It is quite rare for a modern digital piano to develop a fault, If a fault occurs then usually now a days it is just a case of a service engineer changing a board over. Certainly digital pianos have their place and benefits such as tuning always being in tune and being able to adjust the volume, record on board, and being able to play chords and plug in a microphone and sing along on some ranges are a great help and inspiration to a young musician.
For your daughter at the level she is playing, having the full piano set up would certainly be important and having 3 pedals would give her the full set up as some of the more challenging pieces of her repertoire.
Another option for you if you are thinking about a grand piano would be a digital grand piano. There are quite a few to choose from. These would give you a very elegant looking piano but without the tuning problems and also a slightly more compact cabinet.  You can also adjust the volume to suit the room requirements and the range of baby grand pianos have other great features too.
We cannot advise you on acoustic pianos as we are specialists in the digital pianos.
We wish you well with your hunt for a piano for your family.

Advice from a leading Scotland's Digital Piano and Keyboard Instrument specialist
https://www.key-player.co.uk

[virtuoso80]

Speaking as a teacher, there are things I just can't teach on an electronic keyboard. I can't teach you to feel the weight of the hammers, and gain the right sensitivity to truly control the sound of a piece of music. So, I'm more-or-less always in favor of analog over digital.

I'm also almost always in favor of grand over upright. The hammer action is very different on each, and a grand does not respond in the same manner as an upright. Believe me, I know that money is an issue, but I've been on an extensive quest for years to find an upright that I could practice on that would have the feel of a grand, and I have yet to come upon it.

As for heat and humidity, yes those are certainly issues. If you're investing in an expensive piano, you'll almost certainly want to spend a little bit more to get a climate control system for inside of it, and keep the piano in a place away from heat and direct sunlight as much as possible.

Also, you're on the right track looking at Yamaha and Kawai - both make quality instruments in the lower cost ranges.

[hfmadopter]

I've seen several professional piano movers in action and they also have skids similar to what you describe.

I did an edit and hit spell check on that last posting about moving a grand piano ! Sometimes I move on too quickly, other times not soon enough.

Yes, that is the common way to move a grand. They sell dolly's I guess you would call them but all over the place for cost. Never inexpensive. The one I mentioned worked fantastically and Chris build it himself. I don't remember more than what I wrote about it as it was quite a long time ago I was involved in this.
David

[quantum]

Should have been more elaborate.  The skids I've seen used by several pros also looked hand-made.  Goes to show, that you don't need that shiny posh looking tool in order to get the job done right.