Counting

[dinulip]

How do you get your students to count outloud?  Most of my students - big and small - are not very cooperative, with the result that I spend most of my time counting for them -- or.'begging' them to make an effort and do it themselves.  I do not encourage them to use a metronome, as it prevents them to develop their own interior 'clock'...

[quantum]

Get your students to count using vocal inflections that are reflective of the music they are playing.  Many students count with a straight-faced monotone voice devoid of any expression, while at the same time attempting to be musical and expressive in the music they are playing.  These are two very contradictory utterances. When a student counts, get them to mimic the phrasing, articulation, expression, dynamics, tone, breathing and dynamics of the music they play.  Counting can become a far more musically involved in such manner. 

[andy1973]

I would count out loud but I have no idea how I can concentrate enough to play if I was counting out loud. I've tried but I can't get anywhere with it. Only after a year (I started the piano Feb of 2012) did I finally have the courage to play a piece using the metronome, and that was a piece which was mostly quarter notes and the rest halves. I understand that learning timing and being able to count out loud or use a metronome would make me a much better player later, but I need a nudge of information; what's the trick to counting out loud? Or at least a URL that can lay it out for me?

Attached to this post is one piece I think I play pretty well despite my inability to count. Of course, it's by two of the great composers of the 20th century -- Lennon/McCartney and know the song so well I can time it in my head.

[slobone]

You know, I hate to say this, but I grew up way back when students were more likely to be afraid of their teachers than the other way around. The idea of a teacher having to beg a student to do anything at all just astonishes me. Especially a piano teacher. If these kids are going to be any good, they're going to have to work really hard, and for most kids that requires a certain healthy fear of the consequences if they show up at a lesson unprepared. Is it really impossible now to put on an air of command so that they won't even consider not doing what you tell them to?

"You vill count -- out loud -- one and two and three and four..."

[lilla]

Good point about listening to teachers.  I am astonished at what my students will say.  I never never would have failed to practice anything my piano teacher gave me.  I played pieces I hated, probably not real well, but I did them because they were assigned.  Several of my students and multiple times have told me that they didn't practice as assigned because "they didn't really like it" or they "don't really want to do it".  I usually explain that music assignments are sequenced and that they will be lacking as they move forward in their assignments, but they don 't seem to care.  I could yell and demand, I guess.  But that's not really my style.  And counting.  Forget about it.  I assign and assign and demonstrate and go over at the lesson and explain and they act shocked when I ask them to count.  I always tell them that they don't like counting because they don't know how to count.  That they must learn or they won't be able to play music on their own.  That it will become engrained if they practice it and they will learn how to "feel" it.  They still refuse to count.  Today I asked a student to sing to help demonstrate a swing feel in her piece.  She had it almost perfect but just needed that extra little pulse to it.  I thought she was going to fall off the bench rather than sing.  But I made her.  And she sang the swing pulse perfectly, then played it perfectly.  But she didn't like it.  And sang so quietly I had to strain to hear her.  What's with these kids?

[outin]

I just wonder if the "old way" really was much better? I was tought the way Lilla decsribed, still never practiced much and never learned much, so ended up quitting. I was a rather respectful child until about 10 but it did me no good since no matter how much I wanted I wasn't able to concentrate on the things I was supposed to do and I was often physically strained.

My present teacher told me that piano teaching in my country has evolved for the better after we were young and I assume she means that it has become more flexible and less rigid (meticulously going through method books, not taking into account the individual differences) and concentrating less on the pieces and more on the movements and sounds. I'm sure the old way worked fine for many people, but just as with education in general those days are now gone...

[andy1973]

I'm curious to hear opinions about what level of co-operation teachers should expect from students who are only there because their parents are forcing them to take lessons.

I don't claim to know what the percentage of students is who fall into that category, however, and the only piano student I know personally is a friend of my nephew. He's been taking lessons 3 or 4 years now and he plays quite impressively (to my ears and eyes anyway), but he said he doesn't like to play and when he's old enough to quit he will.

What percentage of students go into adulthood and continue practicing and playing throughout the rest of their lives, I wonder.

However, let me conclude by stating that I do understand that the relationship between student and teacher has changed over the years, just as the relationship between child and parent has changed. And I can certainly understand how frustrating it would be for teachers who have students who don't do assigned homework or practice methods as they are taught. I don't completely agree with the "fear" principle mentioned above, but I do believe that students should definitely have a proper amount of "respect" for their teachers. To clarify, I like to think that "fear" doesn't have to a crucial element in the learning process. It seems like such a negative thing to associate with not only learning, but with music itself.

[bernadette60614]

I can tell you this as an adult student, my teacher told me why counting is necessary.  Once I understood why I had to do it, I wanted to do it.

Now, for me, the difficulty is that I seldom think to do it naturally and I have to remind myself to do so.  I keep a diary of practices and for each day I have a note: Did you count?  Yes_____  No_____

I'm much older than probably most of the students referred to...but I think one of the things with contemporary students (young and old), we are more inclined to do what we need to do when we know why we need to do it.

[slobone]

Why are people so afraid of the idea of fear as applied to relations between children and adults? I don't mean shaking in your boots, crying yourself to sleep levels of fear. But shouldn't there be just enough so that if the child has to choose between playing a video game or practicing the piano, she just might think "uh-oh, if I don't practice my teacher won't like it"?

Children by definition aren't mature enough to be counted on to always make the right decision. Is it so terrible if their parents and teachers lean on them just a little bit to develop good discipline skills? Again, I'm not talking about being a monster, or inflexible, or not listening to the child's point of view. Those I hope really are a thing of the past. But that's not the same as making it clear to the child what is expected of her, and withholding approval if she doesn't make at least a minimal effort.

[mcdiddy1]

In my opinion students do not like to count because they are simply not used to it or do not know how to do it. I agree with some of the other posters that if you make counting engaging and musical then they will be more likely to see the value. Often I will say letter names in rhythm, clap, sing in rhythm, and have them echo or do it with me. Often for students who struggle I will just have them identify whether a pattern is long or short. What I tell students is once you get advanced, you play rhythm based on a feel or what some call an internal clock, anticipation where the beats are, and honestly just by remembering rhythm patterns from playing them before so many times. There are really not that many basic rhythm patterns. For me when I read music, most patterns I already know and the only difficulty I may have is knowing where the beats will land and where.

On a side note I think all teachers should at least introduce the metronome at some point and show students how to learn with it sometimes as well as without. Students are not born with a good sense of timing and although they may be taught today with good time without the metronome they need to familiar with how to play with one in order to be effective in slowing down difficult passages, setting goals for themselves, subdividing, and playing with other instrumentals. To avoid teaching how to use it will only short change them in the long run. I am not saying use it in every lesson but avoiding completely will not allow students to be as effective learning a new piece as they could be.