Hypothetically, if the world's population were to be educated in art music,

[perprocrastinate]

would the majority of people enjoy art music, having a sound or working understanding of the music theory that goes into writing it?

I'm wondering this because of the statement 'all music is subjective'. I know it shouldn't, but it bothers me that, by this premise, bubblegum pop music is technically "equal" in value to the output of, say, the Romantic Era composers.

I'm sorry that this is such an open-ended/ambiguous question that you have probably heard before, but I'm dying to know other people's thoughts on this.

[j_menz]

would the majority of people enjoy art music, having a sound or working understanding of the music theory that goes into writing it?

IMO, it is the belief that one needs a sound or working knowledge of the theory that goes into writing it that prevents many people from believing that they may actually enjoy it.

My question to you, though, is: what would the snobs do if everyone liked it?

[outin]

would the majority of people enjoy art music, having a sound or working understanding of the music theory that goes into writing it?

Although it might depend on the quality of the education, I wouldn't be sure. I was mainly driven away from classical music by the education I got as a child. Music appeals to the primitive parts of my brain and I like to keep it so  

[forte88]

It depends what kind of education. My experience with education is it generally attracts the wrong people and teachers don't get paid very much(which might explain some of it)either.
For example it's generally not the succesful businesspeople that teach economics, so my guess if what you propose happened children would be taught by failed musicians. If things don't change that is.

Also a lot of people just aren't interested in music.
Still with the duel between Mozart and Clementi in the back of my mind there is a clear difference in education past and present especially in regard to improvisation and composition. Apart from a few (rehearsed) cadenzas that happens rarely even with worldfamous performers. I'm not sure what the difference is in education but judging by today's standard it's definitely going downhill. It seems like a case of garbage in garbage out. I for one would love to know how children used to get taught coz it seemed the standard in the past to be able to improvise to any theme the public called for(Mozart even from around 6 years of age)

[forte88]

I think there's possibly a correlation between the language people use and their musical ability. Yes mandarin is a tonal language so there are more Chinese that have perfect pitch but that's not the only thing. Language and music seem to be going back to the level of the cavemen. So music is getting more and more beat orientated(house etc) and people use fewer and fewer words.

Occasionally I'll read Dickens and not only did people use more words(of course he was a writer but that's beside the point)but they also talked more complicated, and then of course there's Shakespeare and that's even more complicated than Dickens, but Shakespeare probably thought the same about the Greeks and Romans.

Personally I prefer the writers of today coz their language is generally more concise, just a pity about the (classical)music

[g_s_223]

Millions of people hear what I would loosely describe as "classical" music when they go to films or see TV dramas: no education required, but this accompaniment is essential to the visual art form: imagine if it was not there. Also sometimes, this music is of the most complex and rebarbative kind, but even so it is entirely acceptable and serves its purpose.

What is the case, is that music is a culturally conditioned and contextual experience, e.g. I have no lifetime exposure to Javanese gamelan music, so its processes are incomprehensible to me, whereas a native listener would grasp them immediately.

[ajspiano]

I'm wondering this because of the statement 'all music is subjective'. I know it shouldn't, but it bothers me that, by this premise, bubblegum pop music is technically "equal" in value to the output of, say, the Romantic Era composers.

I'm probably a snob, but I actually don't think its unreasonable to suggest that pop music is of far less 'value' (depends on how you define value doesn't it) than classical music despite its more widespread success in the current time.

If you are looking for majority enjoyment and financial gain pop music is a fair winner - however, as an art form, and contribution to music as art thoughout history there is no valid argument that the current crop of "bubblegum" rubbish will be as influential to the art form as the composers that are still remembered from past centuries. And the real musicians (one's that aren't just selling music, but rather are producing art) of the current century that fall within the popular genres without fail have a healthy respect for the value of classical music.

Considering the range of opinion found in my students, - people come with an interest in music in general and don't classify things as new/old or classical/pop. They are just interested in music generally, and they find things that they like in all time periods. People who only like current pop music aren't usually interested in music generally, they are closed off to anything that falls outside a popular trend.. the reason they like pop music only is because its well marketed to them, rather than because they actually like it..  excluding the very rare exception.

[outin]

I don't like the dichotomy classical-pop really, because there is so much music out there that doesn't fall into these categories: Jazz, Rock, Folk, Blues etc...not to mention a lot of music that defies classification. And lots of it is innovative and "classic" in the sense that it will most likely stand the test of time as long as some of the romantic era composers have.

We should also separate music as a listening experience and a creative experience. I think much of art music is kept alive because it is often more easily "usable", it was usually composed to be performed by different people instead of a one time creation, a combination of the music and the performer. You can buy scores and  play it with one instrument at your home more easily, like solo piano music, instead of needing a lot of equipment or a band to recreate it. If you get good enough you can sound like any pro and this motivates you to practice and get into the art music scene, which is not difficult to find usually. I had an electric guitar as a kid, but found it a bit uninspiring not to be able to really play anything I wanted with it because I didn't have the drums and bass, not the mention the voice. In those days it was quite impossible to find others in my age group who wanted to put together a band for that type of music. If I consider vocal music, there's also less emphasis on the personal quality of the singer's individual voice. If you have the skill you can sing an aria convincingly and will hardly be compared to an original performer, since those were never recorded. But most of us won't sound like some famous rock singer no matter how much we rehearse, so we can sing the song but there's always the original recording in people's minds.

[j_menz]

You can buy scores and  play it with one instrument at your home more easily, like solo piano music, instead of needing a lot of equipment or a band to recreate it.

True enough for classical piano music, less so for the bassoon.

And there's plenty of art music that requires much vaster resources than pretty much anything in the popular world.

[ajspiano]

I don't like the dichotomy classical-pop really, because there is so much music out there that doesn't fall into these categories: Jazz, Rock, Folk, Blues etc...not to mention a lot of music that defies classification. And lots of it is innovative and "classic" in the sense that it will most likely stand the test of time as long as some of the romantic era composers have.

I tend to refer to pop not so much a specific sounding genre but rather as being whatever is unjustifiably popular right now..  ..if its popular and good I don't consider it pop music.

There's generally been something that was once considered popular by the masses from all time periods but has faded from popularity while remaining a valid contribution.. these are my classics..

Its an unusual system I suppose.

[ajspiano]

less so for the bassoon.

Get creative.

[j_menz]

Its an unusual system I suppose.

But one with some history:

Get creative.

I didn't say there was no solo bassoon repertoire, though you have convinced me there may be a case for there being less.

[ajspiano]

I didn't say there was no solo bassoon repertoire, though you have convinced me there may be a case for there being less.

When I saw it, I was surprised that someone musically inclined enough to study bassoon was willing to devote time to an arrangement and performance of that particular song..

[j_menz]

someone musically inclined enough to study bassoon

Methinks I've found the flaw in your argument.

[ajspiano]

Methinks I've found the flaw in your argument.

Hahah to my mind not an entirely unfair point of view..  Though given that Mozart at one point chose to feature the bassoon with a solo such thoughts are perhaps invalid..  unless we can write it off as a lapse in judgement.

[j_menz]

Hahah to my mind not an entirely unfair point of view..  Though given that Mozart at one point chose to feature the bassoon with a solo such thoughts are perhaps invalid..  unless we can write it off as a lapse in judgement.

I actually quite like the basson, but I've never understood the thought process whereby someone wakes up one morning and says "Bassoon - that's my raison d'etre".

[outin]

True enough for classical piano music, less so for the bassoon.

And there's plenty of art music that requires much vaster resources than pretty much anything in the popular world.

Yes, but the resources are in one way easier to find, because there's less variation and an established system (schools and orchestras), not depending on so much where you are.

[ajspiano]

I actually quite like the basson, but I've never understood the thought process whereby someone wakes up one morning and says "Bassoon - that's my raison d'etre".

In my experience most bassoonists are not stuck there exclusively, they have a general love of woodwind instruments.

[j_menz]

Yes, but the resources are in one way easier to find, because there's less variation and an established system (schools and orchestras), not depending on so much where you are.

I suspect it still remains far easier to gather together the resources for a garage rock bang than, say, a staging of the Ring Cycle.

[j_menz]

In my experience most bassoonists are not stuck there exclusively, they have a general love of woodwind instruments.

So the logic runs: "I have planty of hot air, therefore I can become

a) A Politician

b) A Balloon wrangler

c) A Bassoonist.

I pick (c)."

Makes sense now.

[outin]

I suspect it still remains far easier to gather together the resources for a garage rock bang than, say, a staging of the Ring Cycle.

Maybe... But it is not easy to find a garage to play where I live (and it's a bit difficult to play all those instruments if none of your friends are interested in that), yet it's pretty easy for a kid to get to a music school orchestra.

[ajspiano]

So the logic runs: "I have planty of hot air, therefore I can become

a) A Politician

b) A Balloon wrangler

c) A Bassoonist.

I pick (c)."

Makes sense now.

If that were the case I suspect that option D, trumpet, would get the majority vote.

[j_menz]

If that were the case I suspect that option D, trumpet, would get the majority vote.

Perhaps they have my problem.  I can hit those really loud, really high notes that amaze people (or one such note, anyway), but can't for the life of me hit any other ones.

[ajspiano]

Perhaps they have my problem.  I can hit those really loud, really high notes that amaze people (or one such note, anyway), but can't for the life of me hit any other ones.

Are you sure you are not confusing amazement with horror?

[j_menz]

Are you sure you are not confusing amazement with horror?

You say tahmaytah, I say tohmahtoh.

[ajspiano]

You say tahmaytah, I say tohmahtoh.

Well either way, given the inability to play any other notes I suggest you either go practice or call the whole thing off.