Playing keyboard in a band that already has a pianist

[JimDunlop]

I'm trying my best to wrap my head around this as much as I can -- this weekend I'll be playing in church (I do on a semi-regular basis)... Except this will be the first time where I won't be the only pianist.

Our church band normally consists of: a lead guitarist (and sometimes a backup guitarist if he shows up), drummer, bass player, (grand) piano and vocals.  For the first time, we'll be also incorporating a keyboard that can emulate some other instruments (like strings for instance).  I'll be playing those parts (and the other pianist will play the grand piano). 

Have any of you played in a similar situation?  If so, is there anything in specfic I should be watching out for or leary of so as not to clash with the other pianist who'll be on the accoustic piano?  I suspect, that since I'm not going to be the lead instrument for the most part, I'll be OK just filling in with chords and playing harmony...  And keeping the keyboard in an instrument OTHER than "piano."   But again, never having done it, I'm a bit anxious.

Thanks in advance.

JD

[mound]

Yes, pretend you aren't a pianist.  I would suggest, that since the other pianist will be on an acoustic piano, that you only utilize the various pads and perhaps string patches on the synth and add "lush harmony" - holding chords to outline the harmony with these "pads" or string sounds, just kinda adding "lushness" to the sound. don't try to be a pianist, or play piano tones, as that will likely mess things up (unless you two have specifically worked something out). I hope that made sense!

-Paul

[DarkWind]

Wait, isn't the music already written? If so, I don't see why there should be any trouble.

[JimDunlop]

Darkwind: Keen observation.  In a traditional context you would be right.  But this is mainly contemporary Christian worship music.   Which means, for the most part, the musicians have adapted most pieces from various sources, including listening to the radio and CDs, then transcribing the music by hand.  Then, it's usually the vocals that carry the melody (sometimes also carried at different times by the various instruments) and the "score" as such, is non-existent, except chord sheets to point out the progressions or standard guitar TABs if you're lucky. 

As talented musicians as many "band people" may be, all the times I've played with church groups like this once, I don't think I've ever seen a grand staff even once!  And if you ever brought something resembling regular score, at least half of the band (probably the singers) would be completely baffled by it, as quite often, they can't read music.

As a result, what you end up with is something resembling more of a "jam session" than anything else.  Not that it's bad or anything...  It can sound really good actually, but everyone MUST know what they're doing, otherwise it falls apart very quickly.  Hence, my question.   :-)  The other disadvantage to not having traditional scores to work from, is that the band usually has no conception of dynamics or flow.  There are only two volumes: pp and ff.     But this too, I hope to change over time, working with these people.  I'm still a fairly new member so I need to be careful to not step on anyone's toes.

The other aspect I want to work on are the selections themselves.  Currently, the guitar and bass players can play any chord you can throw at them (within reason) but during a service, we must keep all our songs in the same key, because they are incapable (unaware) on how to do smooth key changes... Eg. Moving from Gmaj to the 7th then resolving to Cmaj for the next piece...  It'll take a bit of time, but it's loads of fun!

Cheers,

JD

[Bob]

Sounds like your the "sound" guy for the ensemble with all the pads and filling out the chords.  Probably strings work too?  You'll be in the spotlight if they do anything with the digital pop piano sound though.

How do you go about playing those chords?  How do you know what position to play for them?  Or, can you play just about anything and sound all right?  ie All root position chords instead of your unique voicings and chord subsitutions and all that?  Can you tell us more about that?

[Tash]

oh yes i was well known by the time i finished school for playing keyboard bass in chapel and a couple of times for the concert band in prizegiving and carol service. it was great it was just like play the left hand and we'll make it play down a couple more octaves. that was a result of me refusing to play the piano part for chapel cos they only gave out the music a couple days before and i never practiced them enough to be confident playing them in front of the entire school. we also had a pop ensemble and my friend dani was playing the other keyboard pretending to be the strings in 'something stupid' (song sung by nicole kidman and robbie williams yes i realise frank sinatra also sang it). but it was great, you just have to make sure you don't feel too degraded and remember that you are in intergral part of the band so be proud!!

[JimDunlop]

Yeah, many times the root of the chord will do just fine, and for the chorus or bridge bump it up a third or an octave or something...  Basically, (as a genral guideline for me) if the top note of your chord is hitting the same note as the melody, it sounds decent.  But it does take a bit of experimentation to find out what sounds good sometimes. 

It's like improvising a vocal gospel solo descant.  It just kind of comes naturally.

Man, this must be really tough to read for the strict, "play by the notes"  crowd on the forum.  I bet it seems like quite the degeneration here...    Well, don't be too dismayed -- I play "real" music too.....

Oh, and I don't feel too terribly degraded being the "keyboard player" as opposed to the pianist.  You're right -- it's an important part in the band.  That, and I'm also the main pianist when the regular gal doesn't come -- (which is relatively often actually) -- so I get my fair share of "normal" playing. 

As a last resort, if all else fails and I suck (and it sounds awful) I can always break out an axe and play along with the guitarits!

Cheers,

JD

[mound]

Man, this must be really tough to read for the strict, "play by the notes"  crowd on the forum.  I bet it seems like quite the degeneration here...    Well, don't be too dismayed -- I play "real" music too.....

Oh, and I don't feel too terribly degraded being the "keyboard player" as opposed to the pianist.  You're right -- it's an important part in the band.  That, and I'm also the main pianist when the regular gal doesn't come -- (which is relatively often actually) -- so I get my fair share of "normal" playing. 

I understand exactly what you're talking about Jim. I've played bass in improvisational rock bands for the last 10 years.. This strict "play by the notes" is relatively new to me. I was playing "keyboards" in a rock band as well up until just a month ago. I'm telling ya, grab the pad and string patches and lay "lush" harmonizations on top. It will totally fill space and sound good too.

ps. is JimDunlop your name or are you a guitar player who uses those picks? 

[jr11]

This is a great exercise for a piano player. Have you taken any harmony training? It is certainly valuable for this sort of thing.

Your job is to provide ambiance... to enhance what the other instruments are doing rather than be in the spotlight, or it will clash to mush. Use lots of 6 and 6/4 chords, and if playing SATB style, try not to shift more than a maximum of 3 voices at once between chord changes.

Listen to what John Paul Jones does on Stairway To Heaven with his electric piano line... what electric piano line, you say? It is there, and very prominent, but he blends it so well behind the guitar few people even notice. But it makes the song... gives it the haunting depth that made it one of the greatest.

You will have to change your mindset, but it is one of those skills to acquire that will make you a well-versed and sought-after musician, rather than just another piano player.

[Shagdac]

Jim, I too have played for many (conventional and contemporary) praise and worship groups. The one I normally played for had a Bass Guitarist, accoustic Guitar, Drummer, Pianist (me) and vocals. Occaisionally we would have a "guest" keyboardist or pianist. Normally if it was a song like "Shout to the Lord" or "Breathe" or one that just about anyone would be familiar with, it was easy to play the piano or improvise on the keyboard. Sometimes, if I did the keyboard instead of the piano, I would still use the piano part...but improvise (alot). But then, often that is done on the piano too. I think it really depends on the piece and what you are going for, in the way of a sound. If it's a faster piece, and one that I wasn't familiar with and was performing "on the spot" without rehersal, I would watch the Guitarists left hand and by knowing his finger position for different chords, I would follow the same chords on the keyboard. I would improvise by walking up and down from and to different notes and chords instead of holding them for the entire count, use glissandos, etc. Having the option of using so many different voices or instrument sounds was really fun, and added alot. I think a keyboard can be just as important to the sound as the regular piano.  In fact, one time when our drummer was out, I used the keyboard and did the percussion. The most challenging was when someone would sing a "solo" that I had never heard and they would just tell me it was in the key of whatever...and go from there.....! First time thru the verse and chorus I would stay somewhat contained and just follow, but after knowing one time thru how it went, then you can really have fun and cut loose. Jazz it up a bit!

If your other pianist/keyboardist is carrying much of the melody, then do mostly what I call fill-ins...all improvs, with chording, sound effects, etc. Much like you would from a fake song book using chords, but instead of the melody, use harmonic notes and chords and where they sustain.....you do something (but not as to overshadow the singers). Usually, you can get your feel of what they are doing by hearing the other pianist play a song or two.

Let us know how it goes!

S