Working through rough spots

[bernadette60614]

I am learning how to practice more intelligently and thoughtfully thanks to the teachers here.

A few questions:

My teacher has now given me a Beethoven sonata to work on which is much more complex than the piece I just completed (Rondo Alla Turca.)

I am practicing hands alone, hand together.

Questions:

Should I be counting during the hands alone step?

When I reach a section which I need to work on, how many times should I play the section perfectly before moving onward?

At what point do I know when I can start learning a new section?

Thanks all!

[keypeg]

Food for some new thoughts:

As you practice, aim for what you are trying to achieve, observe what is happening, and adjust.  For me it is like having a dialogue with my body and the piano - not the same thing as chatter - but focusing and adjusting.  When you have reached as much as you can reach, go on to the next thing, take a pause to make sure you are still focusing, and if you still can focus, do the same.  I'm proposing this instead of "how many times".

It will also help you to understand how learning works.  It is a gradual rather than instant thing.  So it's not that you "manage to play measures x - y perfectly", now it's done.  Rather, you bring measures x - y to a certain point today.  Tomorrow when you come back to them, some of what you practised is part of you, and you bring it to a further point.  Your nervous system starts putting things together (it is also a physical activity like baseball), and you literally have more ability several days later than you did the day you started.   Allow this to develop.  Sleep will actually allow your body-mind to tuck a lot of what you practised onto the right shelves.

[birba]

I'm curious as to how old you are-
I suppose students need a certain regimen. But "how many times" can vary, depending on the piece, the student, time available, etc.  You can't beat a passage to death trying to get it perfect, like keypeg said.
Like, here's what I do.  If it's a brand new piece I've never heard (like scriabin's fantasy!) I divide a part of it into sections - maybe 4 measures -  If I'm familiar with the music, the sections might be much longer.  Anyway, I take a section - it should at least be an entire musical phrase - and try to imagine what it will sound like when it's finished.  then I practise the r.h. alone- counting if necessary - maybe even try to memorize it.  then I do the l.h. the same way.  I might try to even put hands together.  But I don't insist and just leave it for the next day, and go on to another section.  The next day, I go over the same sections before going on to a new one.  Every day, I will become more familiar with each individual section and I'll start practising hands together.  It will probably be by memory at this point, too.  So, I would say, in answer to your questions:
Yes.
It depends.
When you can't get any better at it that day.
I think we should start a thread and reveal to everyone how we practise.  I think it would be helpful.  especially to beginners.

[bernadette60614]

Thank you...I'm in my 40s.

Something I've noticed as a rebound student:  As an adult, what I'm doing on a daily basis is already proficient.  It isn't that I don't learn daily, but there is already a firm foundation of learning onto which I add.  With piano, the foundation may be there, but it isn't all that firm..and the learning starts more towards the baseline.

Also, on a personal note, our son has a learning disability and it has been very interesting to me as a parent to see how much of learning an instruments mirrors his learning process. 

[slobone]

It depends on what stage you're at. Most problems in the early stages are because you just haven't learned the notes yet. And that requires a certain (unknown) number of reps. It almost doesn't matter how you break a passage down, you're not going to learn it until you've done it enough times.

But then, after you've basically learned the notes, there can still be a measure here and there that causes problems. At this point you need to be very analytical about exactly what's going wrong. Would it help to change the fingering? Or the way you hold your hand or move your arm? Reps are less important here than just being very specific. And by the way at this stage you should also be working on phrasing. Past a certain point, you should never work on a passage unless you're going to play it with the phrasing you've decided on.

[keypeg]

It depends on what stage you're at. Most problems in the early stages are because you just haven't learned the notes yet. And that requires a certain (unknown) number of reps. It almost doesn't matter how you break a passage down, you're not going to learn it until you've done it enough times.

Is this for memorizing rather than reading?

[slobone]

Is this for memorizing rather than reading?

That's interesting, I've been using that phrase "learning the notes", and now I'm not exactly sure what I mean by it. It's definitely not memorizing, because you still would have to look at the music, but only to remind yourself of what's coming next, or if there's some tricky fingering or something. Otherwise you can play the passage or the piece without having to stop to figure out what the notes are. Not yet at tempo, perhaps, but at least moving along. To me it's the key point in the learning process, when you can really begin to phrase etc. Am I the only one who breaks things down this way?

[g_s_223]

The "how many times" question is probably slightly missing the point. I think you should play a section as far under tempo as necessary to play it correctly, then gradually increase the tempo while retaining the perfect control (HS without pedal) as it becomes mastered. The final tempo achieved should probably be some way above the performance tempo, then HT may be commenced, again absolutely as slow as necessary (without pedal using finger legato only). A metronome may be useful.

The ratio of time spent on "rough spots" to easy parts can easily be 20:1.

[virtuoso80]

From the other thread, you're talking about Op. 10, No. 1.

For the most part I don't see a huge benefit in playing hands separate, with perhaps the exception of the second theme, with the running eighth notes in the left hand.

I'm a big fan of starting without metronome, because you want to relax and get a feel for playing everything easily and comfortably.

...other than that, it's tough to give you advice without being able to show you. Even the first 4 bars contain 2 contrasting attacks. If I were your teacher I would probably work on just those two feels with you, perhaps with some related exercises, for a decent amount of time, because that's a key element of the whole piece, and of piano playing in general, instead of insisting you tackle the whole piece with your current technique.

[hfmadopter]

That's interesting, I've been using that phrase "learning the notes", and now I'm not exactly sure what I mean by it. It's definitely not memorizing, because you still would have to look at the music, but only to remind yourself of what's coming next, or if there's some tricky fingering or something. Otherwise you can play the passage or the piece without having to stop to figure out what the notes are. Not yet at tempo, perhaps, but at least moving along. To me it's the key point in the learning process, when you can really begin to phrase etc. Am I the only one who breaks things down this way?

Slobone, it may be closer to memorizing than you think it is ! Just start taking the score away here and there, pretty soon you might play without it.

[slobone]

Slobone, it may be closer to memorizing than you think it is ! Just start taking the score away here and there, pretty soon you might play without it.

I'm not finding that to be true, there's a lot more involved in memorizing a whole piece than just being familiar with the notes. But yes, sometimes I do find myself looking down at my hands instead of the music for prety long stretches at a time.

Learning the notes starts with sight reading, and progresses till you get to the point where you can play the piece without stopping, in some approximation of the correct tempo. At any given moment the sheet music reminds you of what notes are coming next. But you don't have to memorize the piece to get to that point.

[hfmadopter]

I'm not finding that to be true, there's a lot more involved in memorizing a whole piece than just being familiar with the notes. But yes, sometimes I do find myself looking down at my hands instead of the music for prety long stretches at a time.

Learning the notes starts with sight reading, and progresses till you get to the point where you can play the piece without stopping, in some approximation of the correct tempo. At any given moment the sheet music reminds you of what notes are coming next. But you don't have to memorize the piece to get to that point.

Recognizing the repeating patterns helps, then memorize the differences. It can be done and I bet you can do it, I used to.

These days I memorize passages or a page but mostly sight read the rest. I used to do whole sonatas for recitals and mini performances. Pop pieces too. I didn't think it was possible for me either but I did it. At this stage of my life not sure that will happen again or if I want to even and that's key. You have to want to do it. My teacher back then told me I could do it, I didn't believe her but then did it. She required it for classical music if to do a recital. I guess that requirement pushed me just enough. It was a great and quite liberating experience.