Ack! Why did my teacher assign me this horribly difficult piece

[bernadette60614]

Since I post too much, I probably by now need no intro...but I'm a rebound student with about 3 years total (primarily self-taught)piano behind me.

For the last 3 months, I've been taking instruction from a teacher. We started with Rondo Alla Turca, and she recently assigned a Beethoven Sonata.

To say it is a struggle is an understatement. 

I think it must be apparent to her that it is a struggle for me and I'm wondering why she might assign this to me.  (When I ask is, her reply is "Because I want to.")

[brogers70]

Which sonata?

Anyway, my guess is that unless you teacher is a sadist, she thinks you are ready for the piece. Sometimes the most helpful things teachers have done for me have been to assign pieces that I thought I wouldn't be ready to tackle for a year or two. Usually, they were right and I was ready to work on them.

Break it down into manageable bits, isolate the hard spots and work on them. You'll do fine.

[quantum]

Struggle is a part of learning, improvement, and growth.  When taken in sensible and manageable doses, it can help you surmount obstacles in your playing and push you to the next level.

Your teacher most likely thinks you are ready for this challenge.  If an element of the piece poses a puzzle to you, communicate your concerns to your teacher and explain what your struggle is with this element.  Ask your teacher to show you how to solve this problem in its current context, and how you would tackle it if you come across it again in the future. 

[h_chopin148]

which sonata?

[j_menz]

You appear to still be looking to be assigned pieces you can do readily and play well for your teacher, not pieces which provide valuable learning opportunities and with which you will struggle for some time to get right.

Your teacher does not want to go over stuff you can already do, she wants to expand your abilities by teaching you to do things you currently cannot.

Sounds like she knows what she's doing.

[g_s_223]

Do you have the a coherent set of practise tools to master such a work? That is, a systematic set of procedures to learn a new piece and bring it within your competence.

If not, ask for these to be provided. These are now very well-understood, for example HS, S-L-O-W practice, no pedal, metronome, and so on. Via these ways, over time, most difficult works can be at least brought to a basic level of achievement.

Quite often, when I bring a newish piece to my teacher, I can only play one hand at at time, and often below tempo: this is perfectly OK. Over (sometimes a long) time, the whole thing can be brought together.

P.S. For practise tools, see https://practisingthepiano.com/?page_id=1521

[hfmadopter]

I agree with what everyone else has been telling you and my teacher taxed me on every single assignment. I don't recall any breaks from that !

 I don't care for how your teacher responded to your question though, it comes of sounding rather pompous without being present to hear how it was delivered.. I'd rather she said something like you will be able to handle this. You can do this, we will get you there, sort of reply.

[keypeg]

I don't remember the details now but I do remember that there were other posts with concerns.  For those of you who say you were given very difficult pieces and had to push through, I wonder if that was after going through the stages of being beginners (in childhood) and going through the stages of learning to play the instrument.  This is the part that concerns me.

If you learn to play an instrument for the first time, then you need to be given the tools and this is the same for an older student as it is for a very young one.  You learn elements of technique which have to be developed.  You learn how to approach a piece, starting with simpler pieces, and how to practice it in stages.  Later as you become advanced you might even get a different kind of teacher who now uses the tools that you have been given to help you really interpret more advanced works.  Or you are with the same teacher, who has gradually changed gears.

What we seem to be seeing is adult beginners finding "good teachers" - meaning teachers with a background as performers or polishing advanced students (because we are told to find good teachers), and being placed immediately into the later situation, without having first being formed, without first having the tools.  As I say, I don't remember the earlier posts but I have a vague recollection that they suggested this, and some of the questions asked here suggest it.  When a student asks how to approach a piece, one wonders whether the teacher is teaching how to approach the piece, for example.

[virtuoso80]

As a teacher, and as someone who has always enjoyed tackling the hardest piece he could find (or attempting to), I do like the idea of 'throwing you in the deep end', because it forces you to adjust and get better. Of course, this only works IF THE STUDENT DOESN'T GET OVERLY STRESSED OR DISCOURAGED. If you can keep the mood light, and make sure the student knows you don't expect perfection from them right away, it can help you grow as a pianist (which is the point).

In my experience, I learned that not everyone thinks like me. Many students work better with a solid structure of pieces they can finish with only a little trouble and a slow progression, so I sometimes have to resist my natural urges and go with that.

My advice is to treat it as a learning experience. Unless your teacher is saying "I'm going to make you perform this in front of 200 people in 3 months," which would be wrong, then just work on it slowly, and let it help you get better. No pressure. BEETHOVEN IS HARD FOR EVERYBODY. No one plays the Sonatas perfectly, so don't feel like a dunce if you can't get all the details right right away.

Which sonata BTW?

[bernadette60614]

It is Opus 10, No 1, 5

I think why I'm struggling with this is that it was only 3 years ago that I completed Alfred's Adult Piano Course Book 2, and I just played daily on my own (a couple of years of lessons as a kid.)  My first piece with this teacher was the Rondo Alla Turca so this Beethoven sonata seems like a huge leap to me.

It seems that every measure has multiple challenges: precise rhythm, fingering, phrasing, tempo, dynamics.  Much more going on in each measure than in the Mozart.

We've been working on the first two pages now for two weeks, and she has finally advised me to go to pages 3 and 4, with lots of corrections remaining on the first 2.

I do think that I've made significant progress with her, but it does seem that I'm not equal to her expectations.

[virtuoso80]

Bernadette, the ideal would be for you to be able to step back from being emotionally affected by those expectations, while still learning about all these details you can put into Beethoven. Of course, we're all human, so that's far easier said than done.

Two weeks is not a long time at all. Given your level, I certainly wouldn't fault you for not getting everything right in that time. In fact, I will often say to my students, "Remember, I'm telling you all this just to make you aware of all these details. I don't expect you to do them all perfectly right away."

This is a philosophical difference in musical training. Most likely, if you can stick with this teacher you will become better at all the technical stuff, but I think there's a better way that doesn't require you feeling this way so much, and leaves room for more independent thought and personal expression. It's absurd to suggest there's only one correct way to play Beethoven, yes? Like I said, if you can step back and go along with it without treating it as gospel, that would be great, but most people can't do that. If it's hitting you too hard, there are tons of other teachers out there hoping for your business in this tough economy. 

[keypeg]

Most likely, if you can stick with this teacher you will become better at all the technical stuff, but I think there's a better way that doesn't require you feeling this way so much, and leaves room for more independent thought and personal expression.

A student self-teaches, and thus does not learn technique, how to approach music, or any of the basic things that are usually taught.  Then goes to a teacher who gives her increasingly advanced material, while still missing these basic things.... which the student is trying to get here.  Am I the only one to see a problem?

[bernadette60614]

Let me say this:

I so much appreciate this forum!

The internet can be troubling and disruptive in so many ways...but Pianosteet does, IMHO, show the positive impact and influence of the net.

[g_s_223]

I have taken a look at this work, and it is by no means trivial. Given the above background, I would suggest backing off on this particular work and studying a middle-period Mozart sonata instead: the particular benefit of these works is that they beautifully prepare the student for Beethoven, with their clear focus on LH "Alberti" basses and RH scalic figuration, all within a straight-forward classical sonata framework. Having developed mastery in Mozart, Beethoven is a natural progression, for those who wish to tread further down that most exigent path.

[quantum]

It's absurd to suggest there's only one correct way to play Beethoven, yes? Like I said, if you can step back and go along with it without treating it as gospel, that would be great, but most people can't do that.

Very much agreed.

A student self-teaches, and thus does not learn technique, how to approach music, or any of the basic things that are usually taught.  Then goes to a teacher who gives her increasingly advanced material, while still missing these basic things.... which the student is trying to get here.  Am I the only one to see a problem?

I think you are well founded in your argument.  As more of this story comes to light, it does seem there is a gap in foundational knowledge that may not be addressed by this teacher. 

[hfmadopter]

A student self-teaches, and thus does not learn technique, how to approach music, or any of the basic things that are usually taught.  Then goes to a teacher who gives her increasingly advanced material, while still missing these basic things.... which the student is trying to get here.  Am I the only one to see a problem?

Yes, I see the problem as well or as best as we could through a forum platform. I think this teacher may be missing some vital ground work, at least as described. And I still don't care for the verbal approach that I already mentioned before.

I also agree that some Mozart and perhaps Clementi might go better at this stage. It's been a long time for me but I do recall works from both of them before I got into any heavy Beethoven Sonata given to me by my very competent and polite teacher. She worked you to the bone but treated you with dignity in the process.

[bernadette60614]

An update:

At today's lesson she said that this piece is a couple of grades above the Rondo alla Turca, that she could have given me pieces at a lower level but that I wouldn't progress as much by learning them.

She also apologized for becoming really angry about my once again playing a D flat rather than a natural.

Ack, and all I really wanted to do was to play the Mozart variations on Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star....

[pianoplunker]

Since I post too much, I probably by now need no intro...but I'm a rebound student with about 3 years total (primarily self-taught)piano behind me.

For the last 3 months, I've been taking instruction from a teacher. We started with Rondo Alla Turca, and she recently assigned a Beethoven Sonata.

To say it is a struggle is an understatement. 

I think it must be apparent to her that it is a struggle for me and I'm wondering why she might assign this to me.  (When I ask is, her reply is "Because I want to.")

Hopefully, your teacher will have you working on some easy stuff in addition to the sonata. Maybe easy sight reading material or something. What you dont want to happen is spend a number of months working on only one piece. while the piece itself will enhance your knowledge, it is not as valuable by itself ( as a student ) . Of course there is nothing wrong with learning a great piece, even if it is the only piece you know but in the long run it is better to be able to play different pieces

[pytheamateur]

I studied with the head of music at a small school for 3 years after I did my Grade 8.  He had studied with John Ogdon and was also a conductor of various local orchestra.  Here are some of the pieces he had me work on:
Rachmaninov: Prelude in C sharp minor, Prelude in G minor, first movement of the Second Piano Concerto, Variations on a Theme by Pagannini.  Chopin: Revolutionary Étude. Balakirev: Islamey.

Needless to say I didn't get very far with Islamey, but I managed to butcher the other pieces from beginning to end.

My teacher also had another student play Chopin's Second Ballade after his Grade 7 exam.

[cometear]

This has been happening to me as well. Turns out she did the most helpful thing ever! In the past year and a half I went from Tchaikovsky's "In Church" (such a simple piece), to Haydn Sonata in C Major Hob.XVI:7, to Chopin Waltz in C Sharp, Minor Op. 64 No. 2, and now if you look below you will see what I believe I can take on next because of the challenges. Trust her and ask her for help if you need it.

[danhuyle]

If you get a teacher assigning you a hard piece you like, then consider yourself lucky.

[teran]

Piano repertore really doesn't have a smooth difficulty curve.

Beethoven is always a struggle, but bit by bit you'll make your way and it will be worth it, both in terms of satisfaction and in terms of the enormous improvement in your skills.

I think you should trust your teacher, they are very objective about your ability, and that works both ways, often students believe they don't have the ability to tackle things they actually can because they seem so intimidating.

A while back when my teacher asked me to consider a Beethoven sonata I was pretty taken aback, and when I listed the ones I'd considered the next week and he thought I'd do best with the Moonlight (all 3 movements), I was even more shocked that he'd consider me ready to tackle it, and to be so casual about saying I could do it too.

I stuck to it and practised carefully, listening to all of his advice, and whaddya know, I learned the whole thing.

So yeah, a teacher's job is to have you improve and to challenge you, I think a lot of students are used to teachers telling them they're not ready for certain pieces they like. :p

But it works both ways.

You can do it, it just takes a while to adjust.