Broken Octaves in Rondo Alla Turca

[ffszopen]

I'm working on Mozart's Rondo Alla Turca, and the whole piece seems easy except for the broken octave part. My hands get tired easily and I feel a lot of pain. Do you have any suggestions for that? I feel like I will never manage to do that part correctly and I feel frustrated.

Also, for the sixteenth notes part, the passage starting with notes E, D, C#, B is supposed to be played as forte. I've never had any problem with dynamics before but I can't play those notes evenly loud, maybe I'm doing something wrong technically. Thanks for your advice, and sorry for my poor English. 

[hfmadopter]

It could be that you are trying to do those broken octaves with too much finger movement or even with all finger movement. If you develop  the ability to slightly rock your hand from the forearm it should get much easier for you. Stay relaxed, tensing up will wear you out ! Also, if you can span it, use a finger arrangement of 1 and 3 or 1 and 4 vs 1 and 5. 1 and 3 are especially stronger and more able to handle the F .

Do consider that a Forte is relative to how you are playing before you enter the Forte part. If you start off loud then the Forte can get unmanageable.

Your English came through just fine !

[ffszopen]

I think my hands are a bit small for using 1st and 3rd fingers for broken octaves. I used to do them with finger movement but soon I realised it was wrong. I try to rotate my forearm and practice with a metronome now. When I feel relaxed I can play well actually, but as I increase the speed I start to panic and hit the wrong notes. Maybe the problem is not being able to play comfortably, without tension, but I don't know how to stay relaxed either. 

[cometear]

Broken octaves are common causers of pain and tension. In Beethoven's Pathetique for example, the left hand is filled with broken octaves forcing whoever is doing it to take it very slow and carefully keeping away from tension. Unfortunately that is not the full answer. You need to know why you are taking it slowly. What is the cause of the pain? Why am I getting tired? Piano playing should have no pain at all, and should be easy without getting tired. Some people do not experience tension even though they practice no physical approach, while others, like yourself, are not as fortunate and must apply a strict technique. In any cases of pain and tension I would insist you begin the Taubman Approach. If you want to be a concert pianist, or have any life of performing you cannot continue with any pain and tension. Be warned you must that with the Taubman Approach you will start from scratch. If you comply and practice what your mentor assigns you will be above and beyond you current skill level in no time! The Taubman Approach is a technique that acknoledges the way the body interacts with the situation. Please do visit their website at https://www.golandskyinstitute.org/ and read about it. Find a faculty member closest to you, or if there are none than purchase the DVDs. Trust me, you will not regret my advice.

[j_menz]

Trust me, you will not regret my advice.

It appears to be the only advice you have, whatever the issue. Are you on their payroll?

[cometear]

It appears to be the only advice you have, whatever the issue. Are you on their payroll?

It appears the only problems you people have is injury and I hate to watch it progress before my eyes.

[j_menz]

It appears the only problems you people have is injury and I hate to watch it progress before my eyes.

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

For the record, my only piano related injury is a sore finger from trying to hit a key that wasn't there.

[cometear]

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

For the record, my only piano related injury is a sore finger from trying to hit a key that wasn't there.

It's more of a toolbox. I just give the people the toolbox and hope if they really need help they will find their tool and fix the issue. I state the approach in general because when I see injured people I cannot just let it go by without mentioning what I believe helps. Also no I am not on their payroll. I just study with them. Also I am sorry if we got off on the wrong foot. The injury thing wasn't meant towards you, ignore my ignorance in that post if you could.

[dima_76557]

I try to rotate my forearm and practice with a metronome now.

1) Forearm rotation is OK to practise, but its function is to move the finger to the right place/position on the next key (with a little lateral movement of the upper arm if necessary). It should never replace finger(tip) activity. Forearm rotation without alert fingers may lead to trouble and pain in the wrist area.
2) Do not use raw physical strength to bring the key down. You need just a tiny movement with your fingertip to sound a note, not brute force.
3) While organizing/planning your actions, "lead" the broken octaves with your thumb. Practise the passage with thumb alone first until you are comfortable and then add the pinky. The pinky note is merely an "echo" of the thumb note and should take care of itself. Also avoid excessive stretching and bracing with the fingers. Just open your hand slightly to play that next note for only as long as necessary.
4) Dynamics: For the time being, work in the mf zone. The fortes will be no problem as soon as you are really at ease with the material.
5) Practising with a metronome while you are still unsure of how to play the notes comfortably is harmful. Do yourself a favor and stop doing that.

[hfmadopter]

I think my hands are a bit small for using 1st and 3rd fingers for broken octaves. I used to do them with finger movement but soon I realised it was wrong. I try to rotate my forearm and practice with a metronome now. When I feel relaxed I can play well actually, but as I increase the speed I start to panic and hit the wrong notes. Maybe the problem is not being able to play comfortably, without tension, but I don't know how to stay relaxed either. 

As another poster mentioned, the forearm movement is slight, it adds that bit of extension into the fingers, the tips are still active. What that poster suggested is correct. And, as you gain the ability to really know the piece you should relax more with speed.

 I'm playing a piece myself, not with the octaves you mention but a fast progression of runs in the left hand against a constant treble melody or repeating melody I should say. The different sound produced throughout this segment is from the bass progression in 1/16th notes, that is the feature that adds interest to the sound.. I've memorized this section so I don't have to read it but getting there produced tension when trying to get it up to speed ( that is why I decided to memorize it). Now I am much more relaxed and just mentioning this as an example.

[ffszopen]

Olease do visit their website at https://www.golandskyinstitute.org/ and read about it. Find a faculty member closest to you, or if there are none than purchase the DVDs. Trust me, you will not regret my advice.

I watched some of Edna Golandsky's videos found them really helpful actually  I have to play this piece in a concert in three weeks, so I need a quicker way to solve this problem, but I may purchase The DVDs later, thanks a lot.

1) Forearm rotation is OK to practise, but its function is to move the finger to the right place/position on the next key (with a little lateral movement of the upper arm if necessary). It should never replace finger(tip) activity. Forearm rotation without alert fingers may lead to trouble and pain in the wrist area.

As another poster mentioned, the forearm movement is slight, it adds that bit of extension into the fingers, the tips are still active. What that poster suggested is correct. And, as you gain the ability to really know the piece you should relax more with speed.

For a couple of days I tried to practice by taking these into consideration, and realised that I had problems with the fingertip activity. I am stil working on it slowly but I can see the improvement. It feels better and right. Thanks for your advice on dynamics too, it's been really helpful

[cometear]

I watched some of Edna Golandsky's videos found them really helpful actually  I have to play this piece in a concert in three weeks, so I need a quicker way to solve this problem, but I may purchase The DVDs later, thanks a lot.

I thank you for taking a look at it! I do hope you found it helpful. I hope you find a way to solve it in the next 3 weeks and possibly use the DVDs to help! Good luck

[h_chopin148]

Broken octaves are common causers of pain and tension. In Beethoven's Pathetique for example, the left hand is filled with broken octaves forcing whoever is doing it to take it very slow and carefully keeping away from tension. Unfortunately that is not the full answer. You need to know why you are taking it slowly. What is the cause of the pain? Why am I getting tired? Piano playing should have no pain at all, and should be easy without getting tired. Some people do not experience tension even though they practice no physical approach, while others, like yourself, are not as fortunate and must apply a strict technique. In any cases of pain and tension I would insist you begin the Taubman Approach. If you want to be a concert pianist, or have any life of performing you cannot continue with any pain and tension. Be warned you must that with the Taubman Approach you will start from scratch. If you comply and practice what your mentor assigns you will be above and beyond you current skill level in no time! The Taubman Approach is a technique that acknoledges the way the body interacts with the situation. Please do visit their website at https://www.golandskyinstitute.org/ and read about it. Find a faculty member closest to you, or if there are none than purchase the DVDs. Trust me, you will not regret my advice.

this doesn't seem like advice, just advertising. So, how much did they pay you to type all that out?

[perfect_pitch]

It is advertising... He's posted that link in 3 other threads in less than a week.

Blatant advertising!!!

[h_chopin148]

It is advertising... He's posted that link in 3 other threads in less than a week.

Blatant advertising!!!

Shouldn't that be considered as spamming?!?!

[cometear]

It is advertising... He's posted that link in 3 other threads in less than a week.

Blatant advertising!!!

I am fixing your problems as you ask. I am giving my solution. Feel free to give yours but unfortunately I have seen no advice being spoken from your lips. Obviously these injured people cannot exceed this childish piece so I had figured I should give them what they need to hear. Honestly I believe you pianists are so stuck in the past. If you do not have a problem do not discourage those who do.

[j_menz]

Obviously these injured people cannot exceed this childish piece so I had figured I should give them what they need to hear.

Given that (judging by your signature repertoire) you have barely exceeded "this childish piece" yourself, do you really feel yours is the best advice available?

[h_chopin148]

I am fixing your problems as you ask. I am giving my solution. Feel free to give yours but unfortunately I have seen no advice being spoken from your lips. Obviously these injured people cannot exceed this childish piece so I had figured I should give them what they need to hear. Honestly I believe you pianists are so stuck in the past. If you do not have a problem do not discourage those who do.

You don't neeed special methods to make sure you don't injure yourself playing piano. I have been playing piano for 7 years with a wonderful teacher, and not once can I recall hurting myself, sure I have been sore, but that's beacuse  I practice a lot.  just beacause you are a bit sore doesn't mean you are necessarily "injured".  And don't call something a childish piece when you yourself probably could not play it or has never played it.