Credentialing for piano teachers

[bernadette60614]

I'm coming to the conclusion that "What is wrong with you?  and "I'm very angry with you for hitting that note wrong again" are the not the best pedagogical tools...so I am looking for a new piano teacher.

My sense from discussions here is that it best to look for someone who is a teacher first and not someone who is primarily a performer. 

How would I identify these teachers?

Thanks!

[keypeg]

I think that you start with having an idea of your own goals, which I think in this case are along the lines of getting the primary skills that you need for playing the piano and playing music at the piano.  Since you began self-taught and then ran into problems with a teacher whose main focus seemed to have been advanced repertoire (the skills would magically come through the material?), there may also be things to fix and relearn.

So what you will need is a teacher who is interested in developing a student, building skills, and who would also be willing to do remediation and/or start from scratch.  Rather than credentials you'd probably want to listen to some teachers and see what they say, what kinds of goals they are thinking of, what values they hold and also their expectations of you.  You'd probably get an assessment and feedback.  That should give you an idea.

You may be told about your physical playing - technique.  Make sure you also learn how to approach practising and pieces.  Don't let a teacher assume you know these things just because you are an adult and have played advanced music for a while.

[green]

Was just reading this when I got an email from a parent who wrote:

"I am looking to have some extra tuition for my daughter for piano lessons over the summer holidays.

Please could you send me your credentials (proof of experience and teaching) and also the rate you charge per hour."

Its just the wrong questions to be asking. I feel like writing back 'could you please provide proof that I should have any interest at all in teaching your child?' As it is I trash these kind of emails as soon as I get them.

[keypeg]

Green, what is your advice to this particular student in this particular situation, with the background we already know a lot about thanks to the various posts?

I'm not sure what to do about your recent experience, as annoying as it sounds when a customer doesn't know enough about your profession to find the right wording first time round.  Is it meant as advice, or just well-needed venting. 

[green]

advice to which student? This letter that I just got I wont reply to, they want to see credentials, not have a lesson, what advice is there to give?

As for young Beethoven, well I will tell his mom its worth considering, lay out the plan of attack, and my rate for battle pay! Hey, if it gets him practicing for 2 hours/day for the next 5 months, we are going to see some serious results, mum should be happy to hand over that small token of gratitude in the form of dollars for the invaluable gift of language acquisition...(thats the way I see it anyways, no disrespect intended)

[keypeg]

advice to which student?

The one who started this thread asking for advice.

This letter that I just got I wont reply to, they want to see credentials, not have a lesson, ....

I'm confused.  The letter said that they wanted "tuition" for their daughter.  Doesn't that mean lessons?  I didn't see how reference to that letter pertained to the question at hand, however, unless you are telling Bernadette that she should not ask about credentials (or fee), or change the timing, or (?)

[green]

Yes the letter asked for tuition, she's 'looking for' which means she's shopping around, and thus asking everyone to see 'proof' of their ability, how much they charge, then she will make her decision based on the best 'credentials' plus the most cost efficient package.

I say first look at how a teacher is embedded in a network, a community, that above all defines and gives credibility to who we are as people and as professionals. You get a few great mavericks, but not so often. Then have a one off lesson, with no obligation to continue, that will tell you everything you need to know. At that point, you would pay anything for what they have to offer and you couldn't care less about what pieces of paper they have.

[outin]

Was just reading this when I got an email from a parent who wrote:


Please could you send me your credentials (proof of experience and teaching) and also the rate you charge per hour."

When I was looking for my second teacher I did not have to ask these questions because the answers were available on her web page. The fee was not so important for me, but certainly the credentials were, considering I wasn't actually pleased with my first choice. As a paying student who invests a huge amount of time (which is more valuable for me than money) into learning I need to know that my teacher has some credentials. I think it's only natural to ask for them. People also usually need to know how much things costs if they don't have unlimited income. Time only tells if the teacher is a good match for the student.

I receive a lot of inquiries from people in relation to my other hobby. Some are really badly formulated, but the people can turn out to be really nice and serious. Then again some people know how to ask, but turn out to be complete a***holes.

[outin]

Then have a one off lesson, with no obligation to continue, that will tell you everything you need to know. At that point, you would pay anything for what they have to offer and you couldn't care less about what pieces of paper they have.

Are you serious? After one lesson?

[iansinclair]

Could it be that what the question really should be about what credentials are available?  Which are believable and mean something to a particular student?  I think that we can all recall individuals who had impressive reams of paper -- diplomas on the wall and certificates for passing this exam or that one who were unable to teach some students (or sometimes any students!) with any degree of success at all, while I dare say we can also think of individuals who, without benefit of any paper at all, were very good at teaching.  There are superior performers who couldn't teach a C major scale if the tried.  On the other hand, there are superior performers who also turn out to be superior teachers.  And there are people who are not so good at performing -- could be for any one of a number of reasons, but the paper on the wall isn't one of them -- who are also superior teachers.

So... just what "credentials" are we looking for?  What credentials could we produce which would really prove that we could teach and teach well?  Seems to me that the proof is, the phrase is, in the pudding -- the ability of the students of those teachers to improve and learn.

So green's comment "I say first look at how a teacher is embedded in a network, a community, that above all defines and gives credibility to who we are as people and as professionals. You get a few great mavericks, but not so often. Then have a one off lesson, with no obligation to continue, that will tell you everything you need to know. At that point, you would pay anything for what they have to offer and you couldn't care less about what pieces of paper they have." is the right way to go -- but in our paper and license happy world, it may not be possible to convince people of that...

[outin]

So green's comment "I say first look at how a teacher is embedded in a network, a community, that above all defines and gives credibility to who we are as people and as professionals. You get a few great mavericks, but not so often. Then have a one off lesson, with no obligation to continue, that will tell you everything you need to know. At that point, you would pay anything for what they have to offer and you couldn't care less about what pieces of paper they have." is the right way to go -- but in our paper and license happy world, it may not be possible to convince people of that...

Maybe so, but how does someone find out how the teacher is embedded in the community, if not embedded yourself? And I am sure we are all aware of individuals who are well respected in their professional community and have a lots of influence even of they have long lost track of the development of their field.

Of course the credentials that I am talking about consist of a professional CV and a degree from an established system of pedagogic education as well as performance education. I am not talking about just diplomas one can get by sitting an exam. One can of course have a degree and still be a bad teacher, but around here one cannot have the degree without at least being exposed to modern knowledge of teaching and different methods. If I had to make a choice about someone with no formal credentials and just had one lesson to find out if he's any good, I would still rather take my chances with a qualified experienced teacher.

[bernadette60614]

I  think the discussion gives insight as to why prospective students ask very "stupid" questions.

If you are a student how do you learn is someone is "embedded" how do you know if a teacher's students have made progress?

And, how do you avoid offending a teacher if you ask in an incorrect or naive way?

[outin]

I'm coming to the conclusion that "What is wrong with you?  and "I'm very angry with you for hitting that note wrong again" are the not the best pedagogical tools...

After my lesson today I started thinking that maybe I should change teachers with yours... I might actually benefit from a little bit of spanking every now and then, especially when I am tired after a bad day at work. Get some adrenalin going instead of not concentrating at all and complaining while my poor teacher is trying to get something into my head...

[ajspiano]

I guess outin would never take a lesson from me then..

Cant say I ignore enquiries that ask for on paper credentials though. I usually give a brief bit of info about my history which explains no degrees, while explaining the "real world" off paper experience I do have..   and politely suggest that because I don't have a degree I may not be the best matched teacher for them but also that they are still welcome to have a trial lesson anyway.

I firmly believe that the only way to evaluate a teacher is in person.. The trouble is that it takes one to know one in such a short space of time I think.

[outin]

I guess outin would never take a lesson from me then..

Of course I would, since I am old enough to be in charge of my own education and you promised to cure my pinky
And you do have a great CV, you are a recording artist after all!

I am constantly amazed by the extensive knowledge my teacher has on anything I take her: The composers style, the era and anything I need to know to play that piece well. Even if she has not seen the pieces before. I can only assume it is because she has a good basic education that extends beoynd just learning how to to play. At the same time I see teachers asking questions on forums about things that should be basic psychological or pedagogical knowledge or things about music that even I know about.

I have to point out that to have official credentials as a teacher in any field in this country is not easy, there are a lot of applicants and not that many schools (and they are all supervised by the board of education) so usually those who get degrees are already well motivated and probably also often suitable for the job.

[ajspiano]

I was refering to your desire to have someone "crack the whip" (so to speak) - that's not really my style.

[outin]

I was refering to your desire to have someone "crack the whip" (so to speak) - that's not really my style.

Oh

Well, it's not my teacher's style either, although she can be annoyingly persistent when it comes to doing things the right way.

I just had a really embarrassing lesson today, taking advantage of her being nice and wasting time... Normally I am pretty good at whipping myself.

[keypeg]

I think I have wasted my time.  Good luck in finding a teacher.

[outin]

I think I have wasted my time.  Good luck in finding a teacher.

No, you made really valid points. But remember, you have all your esperiences behind you. Those who have not are as unaware as you maybe once were about what can go wrong and how to spot inefficient and possibly harmful teaching.

I think it's really difficult to evaluate a teacher before you have had a good one...and sometimes when you have a good one you may have doubts for some time because you don't see fast results with all the taxing things you are made to do. One trial lesson simply cannot be enough to do it reliably. But it's a good start.

[ajspiano]

Well, it's not my teacher's style either, although she can be annoyingly persistent when it comes to doing things the right way.

I just had a really embarrassing lesson today, taking advantage of her being nice and wasting time... Normally I am pretty good at whipping myself.

I generally try to force the student to "whip themself" (doesnt that sound inappropriate? haha)..

..what i mean is rather than be angry of unpleasant in anyway about an ongoing error I will instead just insist, by questioning their thoughts on their performance, that they identify the error, its cause, and the appropriate course of action to fix it..   then fix it.. and discuss what will have to happen during practice that week to make sure it stays fixed.

.......

In reference to the OP -
In australia the AMEB offers the performance diplomas, Amus and Lmus - much like the ABRSMs dipABRSM and LRSM for example. They also offer the ATmus and LTmus diplomas which are the Associate and Licentiate of music teaching.

If you like the simplicity of looking for a paper qualification as your guide I would suggest you look initially for someone with one of these qualifications - as aside from the ability to perform these require the submission of essays on and live assessment of real piano teaching problems.

Unfortunately these types of teachers (ones that have a teaching qualification) are very few, so you'll have a great deal of trouble finding them. I think that the teachers who have this knowledge get it by genuine dedication to teaching, and the result is that they don't need to get the qualification to secure students because their teaching speaks for itself and they have a word of mouth reputation..  or in other words, you won't find them unless you're lucky enough to run into one of their students and they are currently taking on new students.

Aside from that, you need to realise that the relationship with your teacher is personal. You need to get along with them, and they need to be able to adapt to how you best learn. This isn't really something that you as a student can find by reading biographies and making sure they have qualifications. You just have to go talk to a teacher and see how it goes..  and go working on the assumption that you may not go back to the person and that that it okay.

[virtuoso80]

Trial and error is the only way I've found to find a good teacher. Credentials won't do it. A self-taught pianist could potentially be a better teacher than a PhD from Yale for some people, especially children, although there are limitations.

[keypeg]

No, you made really valid points. But remember, you have all your experiences behind you. Those who have not are as unaware as you maybe once were about what can go wrong and how to spot inefficient and possibly harmful teaching.

The thing is that the OP asked for help, and she has also written a lot of posts, so we know her background and what the problems and needs are.  I tried to address those specifically.  And you are right, I do have experience which might give insight in exactly this area.  But nothing that I wrote was addressed by the OP, so I don't think it's considered. That's when I thought it might have been a waste of time to write.  I know the question was about "credentials", but must an answer be that narrow if maybe the solution isn't in credentials?

[ajspiano]

just rereading, I think you are very much on the money keypeg. The answer is more than just go see teachers in person.

I think the discussion needs to lean toward what do I take to, do or ask about, at a first lessons to best enable me to understand what the teacher is going to be like and what they are capable of doing for me as a student.

......

I don't personally want a teacher right now, but if I was going to uhh.. "interview" one.. to see if I'd be willing to spend more than 5 minutes listening to them it would probably go something like this - as a first thought:

Some items to take:

• Piece I haven't started at all.
• Piece where I know and am comfortable with the notes and want to discuss more in depth interpretation
• section of piece where I know the notes, but find technically difficult - perhaps a few examples like this, different kinds of problems

I'd want to see a prospective teachers way of approaching these different types of the learning process.. and preferably the pieces would be stylistically different.

I'd also say that I'm looking to choose some new pieces soon, and discuss possible repertoire with them which gives me a chance to have them play a little bit for me to demo a possible piece - this means I test their repertoire knowledge a little and get to hear them play without having to say "soo uhh, can you actually play the piano decently?"

I'd ask them what their musical background is like to, because for me - I want someone who can compose and improvise and is comfortable in all genres, not just classical.

.............

I think the trouble is that I can make pretty good judgements about responses to these things and evaluate easily the value of advice. This certainly isnt true for most intermediate pianists, and beyond that, its obviously totally impossible for beginners to come prepared in that way.

I think at an earlier stage of development for the student, I'd be looking for qualified advice (meaning, this is WHY i want you to do something, not just this is what I want you to do so do it).

[lostinidlewonder]

If you are a pianist looking for a teacher then it might be important to look at credentials. If you know nothing about piano and want to study piano then credentials does not really matter. The problem when you are a beginner looking for lessons is that you don't know if what you are being taught is the best or not. So you need to go on your feelings, do you connect with the teacher, do you like learning with the teacher, do you respect what the teacher has to say to you, do you feel safe and comfortable etc. These are more important issues that a student needs to be aware of rather than being dazzled by a list of qualifications. A high level student also would need to go through this personal assessment, there is no use studying with a highly qualified teacher if you both don't connect.

[outin]

Do you think there's a difference in looking for a coach more than a teacher? I feel a teacher needs to really know what he's doing, if he starts teaching the basic skills, maybe even from the scratch, needs to have a systematic approach. But someone advanced is probably more in need of someone looking and listening to the playing and pointing out issues and offering solutions that the students are often capable of solving themselves. Maybe offer advice on the repertoire that they have based on their performance experience.

Some of us adults are kind of in between: We may have a lot of knowledge and insight on the repertoire, but still have many basic physical issues that have not been solved. We may be able to solve some problems easily at home after they have been pointed to us, but in some other things we are totally incapable of solving them without a lot of help and instruction.

I am not really sure where the OP is, and I don't know if the teacher in question has assessed her needs correctly. I think it would be good to try to discuss the situation and the learning process with the present teacher before looking for a new one, that might help in realizing what is wanted and needed. Has progress been made? Is it the teaching that is the problem here or is it the teacher's persona and the way she talks?

[keypeg]

The problem when you are a beginner looking for lessons is that you don't know if what you are being taught is the best or not. So you need to go on your feelings, do you connect with the teacher, do you like learning with the teacher, do you respect what the teacher has to say to you, do you feel safe and comfortable etc.

The beginner stage is the most important one.  It's not just that you should be getting the foundations in terms of skills which more advanced playing will be built on - not only physical skills, but hopefully also the ability to read music and hear elements in your playing.  You also need to be taught to think and work like a musician in an elementary sense.  I mean that you know learn how to practice.  You learn how to approach a new piece of music.  In the beginning it's broken down for you, and later on you learn how to do that yourself - what to focus on etc.  THESE become your "habits".  If you don't get them, you won't go far.

The teacher of a beginner must know how to teach these things, must be able to organize himself, observe, and plan.  If that beginner is an adult, it's a bit trickier.  If the adult has self-taught, or has some background in music, he may need to be redirected - and still needs to be given those kinds of foundations.

The teacher should have these kinds of goals, and should also know how to impart them.  The student must be willing to work with this teacher.  A nice personality, or personalities clicking etc. is useless unless the teaching skills and aims are also there.  Given the complexity of adult learning, the adult should have some awareness of what is needed, or else the student herself risks undermining her own learning.

[keypeg]

This is the rough reality for many adult students who will be approaching a teacher, and how it gives impressions at a first meeting.

The student has first taught himself, probably using a method book like Alfreds, probably the adult edition.  So the student has not been guided in his first steps under observation of a teacher, which means that whatever physical habits were formed are now entrenched.  At the same time, since these books do give guidance, it can all look "sort of right" but maybe strangely tense or awkward or something - but maybe not that bad.  The student will sound somewhat knowledgeable, because those facts are in the books too.  We don't know how the student actually practices and approaches pieces.

If you get a young transfer students who was decently taught, then if you listen to samples of repertoire, you will get "what level the student is at" and can continue on that level.  The unspoken part is that this student has also gotten the foundations of how to practice (ideally), the physical etc.  As well, because young students are still forming their physical skills, his skills were probably developed in a more basic and less intellectual rudimentary way.  None of these things may be there for your adult student who is playing "at level X" (repertoire).

From what I'm reading in forums, there seem to be two general things that happen with adult students.  One is an "easy music" approach, maybe just taking whatever favorite pieces and teaching them one by one, maybe doing common chords and melody, etc.  The other is where the student tries to be serious and gets a serious teacher with lots of credentials, and the teacher there is used to teaching well trained students and working on repertoire.  These teachers may not have any idea on how to actually shape skills.  So we get the abusive comments and expressions of impatience.

I may be wrong, but I believe strongly in the foundations that a beginner should get, and that even if a student plays advanced material, these still need to be there.  The lack of foundations can also be masked.  If a student plays an intermediate piece for you, do you know whether it's been memorized?  Whether it took months to learn by playing it over from beginning to end?  If a student talks about chords and intervals, is it only intellectual knowledge?  How is this student working, and what does he actually know?  If he plays a grade 4 piece convincingly, will you think that something commonly taught in grade 1 might be needed?

That is, an experienced teacher may be able to spot things.  For example, if a student plays a piece she has learned, and it gets progressively weaker, that may be a sign of poor practice habits - the beginning-to-end kind.  Or being given a lower level unfamiliar piece, and not being able to read it at all.

[outin]

I may be wrong, but I believe strongly in the foundations that a beginner should get, and that even if a student plays advanced material, these still need to be there.  The lack of foundations can also be masked.  If a student plays an intermediate piece for you, do you know whether it's been memorized?  Whether it took months to learn by playing it over from beginning to end?  If a student talks about chords and intervals, is it only intellectual knowledge?  How is this student working, and what does he actually know?  If he plays a grade 4 piece convincingly, will you think that something commonly taught in grade 1 might be needed?

When I started with my teacher she first made me play all kinds of simple studies even though she soon let me start start on something more advanced as well to keep me motivated. That way she could not have missed the lack of basic skills. On the first lesson she told me that what I was doing was completely wrong, because I could never play anything advanced in such a way. My first teacher did nothing of the sort, just started giving me pieces and made suggestions on dynamics and such and notified the occasional wrong notes. So I assume that  in most cases when taking on an adult who has not been properly taught a good teacher will let the student know at once that one needs to take  something apart and build it again. If not I'd be at least a little worried.

[bernadette60614]

Okay then:
There is another university in our city which has a community music teaching faculty of 5 teachers.

Do I ask to "interview" each of those teachers (given that there doesn't seem to be an equivalent of a CPA for teachers?)  How do I determine which of these would help me build a foundation?  (And, how to ask those questions without giving offense..which seems all too easy to do...)

I appreciate my current teacher..but what I'm learning about practicing techniques, et al., I'm learning here and I suspect while that is tremendously valuable, it isn't the best way.

[green]

They should have web sites, check them out. Ask around. Talk to their students and explain your problems. Then talk to them, play a few passages, if there is resonance, you will know it immediately.

When a teacher is needed, a teacher will appear!

[bernadette60614]

No one likes to have their time wasted.

However, I'd toss in that it was the helpful discussion here which caused me to realize that there was far more to becoming a pianist than being able to play pieces on the piano.

If I remain with my current teacher, I will be able to play pieces on the piano...and some fairly advanced pieces as well. However, I still will not know how to approach a piece, how to practice, how to shape it.  I've learned here that those are all areas in which I lack.

My community music program is The Sherwood Community Music School is Chicago. If anyone has an recommendation for a teacher there, please let me know

[keypeg]

Bernadette, if it's read and considered, even if found useless, then it hasn't been a waste of time. 

[melissa222]

I once had a potential student e-mail me, saying he wanted his teacher to be a member of our state's teacher's union for K-12 teachers, and he also wanted them to be an MD. If this person exists--a medical doctor who is also a current member of the K-12 teacher's union and yet, for some reason, is teaching piano instead of doing either of those jobs, I will be shocked. Even if he thought that "MD" could stand for "music doctorate" or something, that person still probably does not exist. There's not much overlap between DMAs and K-12 teachers, and there's not much overlap between K-12 teachers and private piano teachers. For someone to be all three? Good luck, dude.

[bernadette60614]

Okay, then, let's follow me along my rocky road to finding the right teacher ....or not...

I read the bios of the 5 teachers available and 3 of the bios are devoted to the teacher's performance experience and expertise.  One is 75% performance experience, 25% discussion of teaching expertise. The last is 80% discussion of teaching experience and the rest discussion of ensemble playing. 

My inclination is to go with the last teacher, since her "life's work" appears to be teaching from the child through adult level.

Am I on the right track?

[keyofc]

Bernadette,

That sounds like a good conclusion.

I'd suggest - bringing with you on your first lesson - whatever you are working on or want to learn.  Explain your roadblocks and seeing if she/he has a step by step approach in helping you practice.  Chicago is filled with a lot of great piano teachers.