Hands/wrist hurts

[ranniks]

Yesterday I had terrible pain in my left wrist. It wasn't really painfull, just a feeling that the flow of blood wasn't going so well. It was really uncomfortable and almost unbearable.

This happened some time after the following exercise: octave hands minor chards, basically playing all notes in a minor chord, but each hand presses 4 fingers on each note. So you get in total 8 notes, 8 fingers used.

During practise today I have used my left hand only for 3 fingered chords and am kind of scared to go for 4 fingers. I'm gonna ask my teacher about it, but I wanted to know you people's advice about it.

Even my right hand is getting kind of uncomfortable as I'm typing, basically the top of my wrist is annoyed right now, but much less than yesterday with my left wrist.

I do have the tendency to snap the bones in my hands, basically making bony noises. But this has never caused pain/discomfort before.

Are the 4 fingered on each hand chord exercises too much for me right now? Is it because I'm still inexperienced with such a technique?

What can I do to relieve the pain next time it happens? The discomfort of my left hand has disappeared after a night's rest.

[louispodesta]

It is hard to say exactly what you are doing wrong, but I am certain you are not doing it right.

First,  a chord or an octave should be played with basically the weight of the arm, and hand.  Do not squeeze or push the keys.  Just merely articulate your fingers in a natural position, and not a curved finger style.

You have to be very careful about practicing chord exercises (I no longer play these at all) because you can really mess up your hand that way.  And, while I am at it, there is no way in creation the bones in your hands should be popping.

Until you have your next lesson, it is my recommendation that you not play any chords at all.   You are definitely doing something very very wrong!

[hfmadopter]

I assume by popping your hands, that you mean deliberately like high school kids do. Not that you are doing that by playing the piano. My suggestion to my kids was to not do that just because I never figured it could be a good thing ! I also don't think that is the cause of your issue at the piano though.

For now stop doing those chords until you learn the correct way to go about  executing them is my suggestion. And as mentioned already, I too generally do not practice big chords as an exercise and if I do it's in limited doses.

Edit:

Incidentally, another poster suggested not curving your fingers. that's true to an extent but there is a way to do so and not tense up. Additionally, it would be just as bad to force your hand open beyond what is the natural curl of your hand or shape of your hand. If you let your arms rest at your side, look at your fingers in a relaxed nature. Just let them dangle there, that's your natural curve to your hands.

[faa2010]

By experience, I can tell you what it could be:

You are tensing you hands/wrists, unconsciously or not. Doing this can give you pain.

It's good you know it before it passes longer and becomes a bad habit (like with me  ).

In that case, you have to look for a strategy to relax both yourself and your arms, wrists and hands.

[j_menz]

By experience, I can tell you what it could be:

Note to you and to everyone else who jumps into these threads:

Do not assume that whatever problem you once had with technique is the same problem as someone else is having.

Do not offer advice such as "learn to relax" - it is completely useless.

Do not offer advice unless you (1) have a technique that does not give you problems and (2) preferably have some experience in dealing directly with a range of other people who do have problems.

This blind leading the blind is not helpful for anyone.

@faa2010 - this wasn't directed particularly at you, you just happened to be the guilty party at the wrong time.

[outin]

Ranniks:
I stuggled with chords for a long time, especially with my right hand. I could not play repeated chords without tension and even pain in my forearm. It just did not come naturally to me, I had to really study the technique. Probably one reason was that my shoulders were so stiff that there simply was not enough weight in my hands to push and keep down the keys on my piano without static tension on my wrist, hand and fingers. When I tried to relax my wrist after playing the chord the keys popped up unless I literally pulled the keys down with my fingers.

I agree that just "relaxing" is not the answer, it's about balance, relaxing where you should and be firm in other parts. It takes time to learn to balance everything right, so do not push it, but work with your teacher. You should figure out together what it is that you are not doing right. Stop practicing it if you feel uncomfortable. I had to work a lot to play chords slowly and learn to relax my wrist after playing the chord, it was natural for me to just keep everything tense all the time. The problem has solved itself gradually, pieces I had to drop before because of tension and pain seem easy now.

I have also noticed that I am often tense when I am still learning the notes of a new piece. I relax naturally after I stop worrying about which notes to play. So sometimes there's mentally induced tension...

[dima_76557]

Do not assume that whatever problem you once had with technique is the same problem as someone else is having.

Do not offer advice such as "learn to relax" - it is completely useless.

Do not offer advice unless you (1) have a technique that does not give you problems and (2) preferably have some experience in dealing directly with a range of other people who do have problems.

This blind leading the blind is not helpful for anyone.

It's high time someone said that. Thank you. There is generally too much "wisdom" and "experience" of the wrong kind on forums like these. Even if one plays like a true virtuoso oneself, diagnosing problems in other people is an expert skill, especially if we have no idea of how that person plays, what his/her background is. A problem with the thumb, for example, may actually be a sign of a lack of function in the index finger. Pain in the wrist, for example, may be caused by a collapsing joint in the pinky, etc., and "relaxing" everything will make it only worse because the cause may already be lack of activity in the right place. Person-to-person instruction by an expert is often the only correct solution.

[outin]

It's high time someone said that. Thank you. There is generally too much "wisdom" and "experience" of the wrong kind on forums like these. Even if one plays like a true virtuoso oneself, diagnosing problems in other people is an expert skill, especially if we have no idea of how that person plays, what his/her background is. A problem with the thumb, for example, may actually be a sign of a lack of function in the index finger. Pain in the wrist, for example, may be caused by a collapsing joint in the pinky, etc., and "relaxing" everything will make it only worse because the cause may already be lack of activity in the right place. Person-to-person instruction by an expert is often the only correct solution.

You are absolutely right. As my teacher says playing the piano well simply is a very complicated physical action. For the lucky ones it happens more naturally but many of us have to struggle to find the right way. It is unfortunate that not everyone has access to instruction by an expert (not even those who have teachers), but as it is a lot of people rely on internet advice. And that advice is often inconsistent, even when given by teachers.

[chopin2015]

True. I recommend seeking a physical therapist that will track your health and help you maintain it. if you have been practicing more than usual and more vigorously, then you need to cut back and do a more gradual increase in what you subject your body and mind to. Also, it is safe to say, daily activities like yard work, computer, writing, holding the wheel of your car(not saying you should let go of the wheel though) but you need to do the math. If you did any of these activities in a day, subtract some time from your practice.

Most importantly, take care of your overall health. Focus on your salt and sodium intake and stay hydrated. Exercise, attend physical check-ups, have some x-rays taken right now to see if there is any signs of subluxation (ask first, I do not recommend anything) get a massage and do anything else that helps increase blood circulation. Go outside more often. ETC

[dima_76557]

It is unfortunate that not everyone has access to instruction by an expert (not even those who have teachers), but as it is a lot of people rely on internet advice.

Here is a clip by Eileen Troberman, an Alexander technique teacher. The clip is not about piano playing. It just explains the construction of the hand (the 3 arches) that will be helpful for many instrumentalists, because most of the problems come from incorrect perceptions about hands and fingers and their functions, and cannot be resolved by simply relaxing the playing apparatus or coordinating actions from the shoulders/upper arms/forearms, etc. The clip is called: "Developing nimble fingers and strong hands". Enjoy:

[faa2010]

Note to you and to everyone else who jumps into these threads:

Do not assume that whatever problem you once had with technique is the same problem as someone else is having.

Do not offer advice such as "learn to relax" - it is completely useless.

Do not offer advice unless you (1) have a technique that does not give you problems and (2) preferably have some experience in dealing directly with a range of other people who do have problems.

This blind leading the blind is not helpful for anyone.

@faa2010 - this wasn't directed particularly at you, you just happened to be the guilty party at the wrong time.

My apologies if my comment sounded like if I know it all, but I say it could be, no it can be, so I didn't assume anything and I didn't want to mean that I am in the right track.

And you are right, I shouldn't give any advice if I am not an expert.

[ranniks]

Thanks all!

In the end I was only supposed to play left handed 3 notes, so I was doing the exercise wrong. My teacher told me basically the same as you: stop doing that if you have pain. Also gave me a tip to roll the right hand if I needed instead of holding the place of the four notes.

Pain is gone thankfully.

[nyiregyhazi]

It is hard to say exactly what you are doing wrong, but I am certain you are not doing it right.

First,  a chord or an octave should be played with basically the weight of the arm, and hand.  Do not squeeze or push the keys.  Just merely articulate your fingers in a natural position, and not a curved finger style.

For the wrong person, this can be truly terrible advice. Natural can mean countless different things. I've recently developed an exercise that I've found very effective among various students that involves tapping the surface of the keys as vigorously as possible without moving them (tapping the whole hand quite vigorously against the surfaces with notable movement from the wrist and of the whole forearm)- to develop an instinct for the healthy action that stops a hand collapsing without resort to bracing it. Neither an inert hand nor a stiff one performs the task well, which makes it an excellent test of proper responses. Get it right and you can bang the hell out of the keys enough to make a lot of external noise, without a single note sounding. However, what is interesting is how markedly different my advice needs to be for different students to get the same results.

In many cases, those with the most relaxed hands struggle. For any hope of the finger response to become instinctive, I have to get them to ensure the knuckles are high and that the thumb is accustomed to pointing notably down, to open the arch. For some students this requires significant intent at action. Others hold the position well, but with too much effort and need to strive to relax without then losing shape altogether. Equally when contacting the keys, some can be led towards a situation where the finger action is virtually 100 percent instinctive whereas others need significant prodding at consciously lengthening the fingers in response to contact, to stop the fingers giving way. Until they feel that aspect, they either tense up or collapse dysfunctionally. With either problem, it's impossible to bang the surfaces truly forcefully without accidentally producing tone.

"natural" position means virtually nothing (except away from the instrument) until a student has learned the specific physical actions and timings that can best maintain that external shape while playing a chord. The simplest way to learn responses involves fingers that are relatively close to vertical and which lengthen at the instant of contact. Students who start with "relaxed" flat fingers tend to get away with slight stiffness which turns into overwhelming tension when they go fast. It's very hard to succeed with a limp hand that has never learned to open out into positions like those seen from rubinstein. That style of position is the easiest way to get the fingers balancing the moment of contact, rather than stiffening to survive it.

[nyiregyhazi]

Just to add to that, I play as often with a shape like Horowitz as like rubinstein. "Natural" summarises neither well. Success hinges in both shapes on whether the fingers are already interacting well with the resistance of the keys before going on to move them- in a way that prevents any risk of collapse without using fixation to do so. The places I go wrong are where my fingers start dangling completely inert and lifeless- which leaves them struggling to avoid giving way unless I involve emergency tension to save them. Striving for inactivity is the most dangerous thing I can possibly do. All it takes is a tiny preliminary activation against the key resistance (banging key surfaces trains this activity spectacularly well, in the context of a free arm) . However, neglecting the tiny activity leaves no choice but tensions.