Tricky figure in G# minor study

[ted]

About bar 27 in the Chopin study in thirds, there are two descending passages, one on G9 and then the same thing on F9. The first is dead easy using a constant (12)(45) grip, but I'm damned if I can guarantee to rip the second one off up to speed without missing a couple of notes. Can I have some tips from the classical players here about fingering and practice methods of the F9 descent, right hand please. If I use (12)(35) I tense up and (12)(45) is precarious. In general I've never found double notes hard but this particular figure annoys me. The third descent on the diminished chords I find easy too, it's just the F9 one. 

[andreslr6]

Yeah I hate that bar. I remember practicing it in block chords. Also don't leave all the work to your fingers on this particular section, this is the part where you need your wrists the most in all of the etude I think.

I can't remember which fingering I used, probably I alternated between 35 and 45 on the top third, depending if it was black-white, white-black, etc. but to figure it out I played them as block chords to see which one came out naturally and kept that one for when I played them as written. Hope this helps.

EDIT: just coming back from checking it on the piano, I'm thinking alternating 45 -35 - 45 -35... all the time might be a good idea. I don't know how much it helps, if at all, but try just playing the top thirds legato with that fingering to get the idea and the purpose of alternating 4 and 3.

[ted]

Thank you for replying. I thought about alternating grips but have been too lazy to work at them yet; I'll give them another try. I hadn't thought about block chords and that sounds like a possible practice method. The way I've gone so far is to land on each top third and partly use the wrist to fall onto the lower third. It lacks legato in the upward direction but I can get it fast that way, and at speed everything sounds legato anyway. I only play it for my own satisfaction, not for performance, so that is acceptable. It is a mystery why I can fly through the diminished descent and not the F9; just the way my hand is shaped I suppose. Of course I could probably work at it on the Virgil Practice Clavier for weeks until I could do everything with the fingers, same as the rest of the piece, but the dividends wouldn't be worth the effort.

Thanks again for your suggestions. 

[chopin2015]

Can I have a snap shot of that passage, including time and key sig?

[ajspiano]

Can I have a snap shot of that passage, including time and key sig?

I believe the key sig at that point is C major..  though it modulates in the second bar to Bb its running over g9/f9 as ted said, rocking between thirds.. 

This is one of the etudes I've worked on least of the bunch, so my advice is really not worth much. I think andreslr is probably right though - but I'd have to try it..  just looking now the scholtz edition says 54, 21, 53, 21 etc. There's going to be a lot of fiddling to get it right beyond just the fingering though. It will be a very precise movement.

surprised to hear you would be playing anything that you didn't write ted..?!

[ted]

The third and fourth bars after the change to C major.

surprised to hear you would be playing anything that you didn't write ted..?!

I do play a small repertoire of classical and a much larger one of ragtime, swing and stride. I don't post it on the forum because I'm not very good at classical compared with other players.  I don't make a lot of mistakes but it all sounds like Ted improvising with Chopin's notes. But yes, I do play other people's music every day, more as a means to an end than anything else.

[j_menz]

but it all sounds like Ted improvising with Chopin's notes.

That would be my definition of a great performance!

[ajspiano]

here's the graphic with fingering from mine.


And just to clarify, if people would learn to improvise on chopin as a matter of preference over playing as chopin wrote the world would be a better place.

[ted]

Thanks to all. We have two examples which avoid using the same grip all the way down. I'll try varying mine for a few days and see if gets any easier.

[andreslr6]

here's the graphic with fingering from mine.

Oh look, here's an example of what I said , I wasn't so wrong after all . Which edition is this? mine is the Wiener Urtext.

Edit. Is this the scholtz you mentioned?

[chopin2015]

For the 1st bar, this is what I got in terms of alternate fingering
 
43 21 53 21 54 21 43 21 43 21 53 21 43 21 back to 43 21. I like using my 4 because for me, its a strong finger.

[ted]

For the 1st bar, this is what I got in terms of alternate fingering
 
43 21 53 21 54 21 43 21 43 21 53 21 43 21 back to 43 21. I like using my 4 because for me, its a strong finger.

An interesting fingering. It doesn't suit my hand but thanks anyway.

[chopin2015]

You can substitite the 43 with something else, but I wrote the switches out so that when the figures repeat an octave lower, you can repeat the fingerings.

[kalirren]

I'm currently working on this piece too and I wanted to chime in slightly off-topic:
I just saw in your posts above that the left hand in these passages is notated differently in your two editions!

Ted's edition has a continuous a middle voice in the left hand, whereas ajspiano's edition has no middle voice.  Mine has no middle voice, like ajspiano's, but this makes me wonder.  Mine is an old Kalmus edition.

Ted, could you tell me which edition you're using?

[ted]

Ted, could you tell me which edition you're using?

I memorise things, in this case a long time ago, and never refer to the music again. I just took a screenshot of something at random off IMSLP because chopin2015 asked me to clarify which passage I meant. Sorry, I'm sure one of the others can help you.

[ted]

This issue is now completely solved, and very rapidly; the passage is now easy. Like most things of a physical nature with me, the answer lay in the way I thought about it, not in visible or communicable movements. But thanks to all who offered suggestions.