Digi piano Casio cdp 120 - the feel of the keys

[trus]

Hi,
I know it's not the poshest of the digital pianos I have, but when I bought it a few months ago, to get back into playing, it ticked all the boxes!
Anyhow, now, when I am trying to play more difficult pieces and achieve a better contrast in dynamics through out, I notice that:
1) Sometimes if I try to press the key gently to produce a pp sound, it comes out with no sound at all ( Can this happen on the acoustic piano at all?)
2) The whole key sensitivity in some keys is only to do with the key pressed half way (well, may be 3/4 of the way down,  pushing it!) down - if I press further than that down, it makes no difference to the sound, i.e. it won't go louder, more vibrant, or longer, etc. At least this is not what i remember from playing a proper piano!?
3) If I play pianissimo notes i can hear a knocking sound of the keys.
4) Whilst pressing the note down, trying to play gently and smoothly it sometimes gives me a shallow feel, and as if the key as if bounces back to my finger, feeling light.

I have no other opportunities or access to a good acoustic instrument, can you please tell me if it's my playing or could it be the piano itself??
Thank you very much!
Trus

[sirpazhan]

1) for PP, or even PPP it would make a sound, but if you press it too softly,, its possible that you may not hear a sound.

2)on an acoustic, it would get louder,, but from 3/4 down position, it wouldn't be much.  

3)never heard 'knocking' sound.. but naturally, keys on an acoustic piano will make a faint sound, whether its the sound of the action itself, or the keys going down, hitting the capstans, or even when the keys come up and hit the felt stopper.. but nothing noticeable.

4)a good piano can give a smooth and even feel across the keyboard.  it would feel light, but again, its hard to define 'light' since everyone has a slightly different interpretation of that word.

bottom line, no matter how good the digital piano is, none today can give you a 100% reproduction of an acoustic piano.  A good tuned and voiced/preped acoustic piano can allow a performer to express themselves, totally and completely.  but to answer you question, its very hard to tell without actually seeing/hearing you play.  

[trus]

sirpazhan, thank you for your in depth answer!
Yes, it is hard to desribe the "feel" ;/
I have inserted a link on to my you tube channel - there are some videos of work in progress, but they already sound babyish to me, as I improve them every day (will be recording new ones soon)

https://www.youtube.com/user/anbocl11/videos?flow=grid&view=0

I discovered the weird feeling of the keys whilst mastering the Chopin's prelude, struggling with the control of the keys. Seems like the difference bettween too loud and too quiet (I am talking about what I want to achieve in that precise moment!) is too much of a fraction.. 
The only thing I have to compare with just now is my memories of playing some nice instruments (upright and grand) while studying at the music school. I do remember that uprights had softer keys in general and grand pianos I remember playing had heavier keys. Of course, they all sounded different to each other, even the same make of the same grand piano - two of them could sound different. I don't remember this "emptyness" and bounciness of the keys though... I am talking about touch response ...

I have tried changing the settings on the touch response ( I mean more sensitive to less sensitive), but don't seem to find what I want..

[hfmadopter]

The action is more suitable in more expensive keyboards, in fact can be not so different from a grand piano. Acoustic is still acoustic though with not just variations in sound between similar instruments but feel as well ( not to mention in tune vs out of tune and various action adjustments). Also more expensive keyboards have dynamics adjustments that can be made, augmenting the realistic feel all the more by personal tweaking. Right now I'd say I have my digital ( Kawai MP6) as dynamically responsive if not more so than my grand. It can not duplicate the acoustic real live feeling richness in tonal nuances however. It can do lots and lots of things very beautifully but not that.

If I had to live with just my digital or even a bit better one because of living conditions I could do it. As it is, I enjoy both digital and acoustic for each ones attributes. You are getting a thin light feel because that's what the instrument has to deliver.

If that is you in the video, the first couple of clips that you put up, then you need some instruction in posture and hand/arm positioning. Not getting picky here but it means a lot ! You are way too high on that seat. Additionally, you let your left hand fall flat and even the wrist cave in which causes a break in forearm support. But start with the seating position first, try to get into a seating position where you have your forearm level to the keys.. That's the first step in keyboard control.

I can't say from a few videos if you need a  new instrument but that one is on the low end of digital keyboards/pianos. You can only expect so much out of it.

[nystul]

I discovered the weird feeling of the keys whilst mastering the Chopin's prelude, struggling with the control of the keys. Seems like the difference bettween too loud and too quiet (I am talking about what I want to achieve in that precise moment!) is too much of a fraction.. 
The only thing I have to compare with just now is my memories of playing some nice instruments (upright and grand) while studying at the music school. I do remember that uprights had softer keys in general and grand pianos I remember playing had heavier keys. Of course, they all sounded different to each other, even the same make of the same grand piano - two of them could sound different. I don't remember this "emptyness" and bounciness of the keys though... I am talking about touch response ...

There are a few things at play here.  The action is a compromise between cost and quality.  You get 88 keys, they are actually weighted unlike toy keyboards, it feels somewhat like a piano, but at this price range they are still designed to be light and cheap.  But the sound engine is also a big culprit in why you are struggling to get the right tone.  I won't get overly technical here, but basically when you strike a key the velocity is determined and one of maybe 3 recorded samples is chosen based on that.  So there is like piano level sample, mezzo-forte sample, and strong forte.  Some instruments have more than 3, and some instruments do a better job of using filters to blend between them.  But what is happening is your melody is going between the mf and f layers and as you are asking for a slight change in the timbre the sample changes from the middle to the top layer and it sounds like you are Jerry Lee Lewis.  When you combine that with the sampled piano being bright to begin with and the decay of the notes being shorter than they should be, it is not the sound you are looking for on that Chopin piece.

Is it you or the instrument?  I'd say it's a bit of both.  You can make it sound better with more practice.  But clearly you are accustomed enough to the sound and feel of a real piano to notice some of the drawbacks of this digital piano.  High end digital pianos also suffer from the same issues but they do a better job of addressing them.

[trus]

If that is you in the video, the first couple of clips that you put up, then you need some instruction in posture and hand/arm positioning. Not getting picky here but it means a lot ! You are way too high on that seat. Additionally, you let your left hand fall flat and even the wrist cave in which causes a break in forearm support. But start with the seating position first, try to get into a seating position where you have your forearm level to the keys.. That's the first step in keyboard control.

I can't say from a few videos if you need a  new instrument but that one is on the low end of digital keyboards/pianos. You can only expect so much out of it.

Thank you for your reply hfmadopter, I appreciate you poitning out about my left hand. I have been experimenting with it's position as I had a misplaced fracture of the 5th metacarpal bone a few years ago, which made my pinkie slightly sorter and rotated inwards towards 4th finger (if I close my wrist my pinkie would go under the 4th finger a little) My 4th an 5th metacarpal bones in the hands itself are closer together due to the 5th being thicker and a lot curvier than it should be, etc. cut long story short - I resumed playing and stretching fingers for octaves, etc was soo painful, basically playing itself is causing shoting pains in my flexors from 4th and 5th fingers and it goes all the way into my elbow. Collasping the wrist made stretches easier. Lifting myself higher was an attempt to relieve the pain, however it caused even more pain in the wrist.
So, I am trying to fix all this now, since you comment I have improved this a lot, but my left wrist is not as relaxed as the right one, suppose it will come in time. Thanks a lot again.

[trus]

There are a few things at play here.  The action is a compromise between cost and quality.  You get 88 keys, they are actually weighted unlike toy keyboards, it feels somewhat like a piano, but at this price range they are still designed to be light and cheap.  But the sound engine is also a big culprit in why you are struggling to get the right tone.  I won't get overly technical here, but basically when you strike a key the velocity is determined and one of maybe 3 recorded samples is chosen based on that.  So there is like piano level sample, mezzo-forte sample, and strong forte.  Some instruments have more than 3, and some instruments do a better job of using filters to blend between them.  But what is happening is your melody is going between the mf and f layers and as you are asking for a slight change in the timbre the sample changes from the middle to the top layer and it sounds like you are Jerry Lee Lewis. 

Thanks nustyl, that's what I thought about no layers in between programmed tones... and lol about Jerry Lee Lewis ! :/
I think I will start saving up for a real instrument!

[bronnestam]

I have one of the more expensive digitals (Yamaha CLP 465GP) and I must say that the difference between it and an acoustic grand is less than the difference between it and a cheap digital. Yes, actually. (But of course there IS a difference!) Its biggest disadvantage is the price, but you can buy another piano in the 400 series for half the price if you choose a smaller version. Same functions, same feeling, but smaller cabinet and smaller loudspeakers.

Since I got this new piano I have been playing like a maniac, so the investment paid off, so to speak ... BUT I have also gained some trouble with my hands and my muscles, due to too much practicing, so I must definitely support hfmadopter here: wrong posture will be a disaster for you when you play a lot. I wanted to work hard with technically difficult pieces; instead I have to spend most of my practicing time correcting my posture and my movements, and trying to relax, relax, relax ...

[hfmadopter]

Thanks nustyl, that's what I thought about no layers in between programmed tones... and lol about Jerry Lee Lewis ! :/
I think I will start saving up for a real instrument!

When you say "real" do you mean acoustic or a better digital ?

[trus]

When you say "real" do you mean acoustic or a better digital ?

I mean a real acoustic piano ))

[hfmadopter]

I mean a real acoustic piano ))

Nice, good luck with your future purchase !

[mikeowski]

Unless you are already really close to buying an acoustic, you should definitely get a stand made for the casio cdp 120 (called cs-44p), instead of a generic x-shaped one. It's just so much better when the wobbling is gone, believe me.

[bronnestam]

Where I live - Sweden - you can find acoustic pianos almost for free. People want to get rid of them and give them away for a symbolic sum, or at least if you arrange the transportation by yourself.

[hfmadopter]

Unless you are already really close to buying an acoustic, you should definitely get a stand made for the casio cdp 120 (called cs-44p), instead of a generic x-shaped one. It's just so much better when the wobbling is gone, believe me.

I built mine for the MP6 out of cabinet grade Birch Ply, glued and screwed together and stained in black Minwax Polyshades. It's better than a factory press board one and I have enough out of a full sheet left to build a second one. I think it cost me $70 and is rock solid. I even built on an almost full length music holder that spans over the piano.

[trus]

Nice, good luck with your future purchase !

Thanks!

[trus]

Unless you are already really close to buying an acoustic, you should definitely get a stand made for the casio cdp 120 (called cs-44p), instead of a generic x-shaped one. It's just so much better when the wobbling is gone, believe me.

I believe you! Thanks!

[trus]

Where I live - Sweden - you can find acoustic pianos almost for free. People want to get rid of them and give them away for a symbolic sum, or at least if you arrange the transportation by yourself.

Yes, same here, I am just a bit worried picking up something what will need changing the insides of it, it will cost a lot.. I am looking though!

[trus]

I built mine for the MP6 out of cabinet grade Birch Ply, glued and screwed together and stained in black Minwax Polyshades. It's better than a factory press board one and I have enough out of a full sheet left to build a second one. I think it cost me $70 and is rock solid. I even built on an almost full length music holder that spans over the piano.

Probably will be abetter quality too!  I might approach my hubby nicely as I am not good with builiding things lol )

[hfmadopter]

Probably will be abetter quality too!  I might approach my hubby nicely as I am not good with builiding things lol )

Probably so, however if you aren't keeping your digital piano for long it may not be worth the effort or expenditure .

As to the piano you want to get, I assume you will look for a console or upright at any rate ?

[trus]

Probably so, however if you aren't keeping your digital piano for long it may not be worth the effort or expenditure .

As to the piano you want to get, I assume you will look for a console or upright at any rate ?

It all depends what life brings, we might be moving house within next 6 months or so, which we should know for sure quite soon.. so I am hoping to have enough room for a baby grand, but I am open for options and if I see a nice upright (quality, sound and price combination!) then I would get it instead.
There are a lot of companies nationwide which offer rental/credit thing, some of them for 6mnth up to 3 yeara, 0 percent, and when u decide to buy itthen what you have paid is deducted off the total. I am not entirely sure what make I would want, I used to play german and easter european pianos before, vaguely remember the makes... I have never playes yamaha or Steinway,  or kawai , they seem to be quite popular.

[hfmadopter]

I have never playes yamaha or Steinway,  or kawai , they seem to be quite popular.

You just have to play the various choices out there. The one that sings to you and feels right probably is right ! I wouldn't toss out the right piano of all three brands personally, though I assume you know the Steinway's are hand made and demand a stunning price to go along with that. That's why I own an 1890's vintage Henry F Miller parlor grand I guess ( and the Kawai digital).