Prospective Student - No sense of rhythm

[sonata58]

I interviewed a prospective student the other day. He is eight years old and in the 2nd grade. He seems like a really good boy -- well-behaved and academically-smart.

However, I noticed that he has absolutely no sense of rhythm and very poor listening skills. I clapped some simple rhythms (quarters and eights), and asked him to clap them back to me. He could not. I clapped the pattern several times. I even held his hands and helped him clap it. But he still could not do it.

The same thing happened when I tried to teach him by rote the first song in The Music Tree - Time to Begin. One finger of each hand on one of two black keys. I showed him that it is left-right-left-right. It took him a long time before he could duplicate it.

So, I'm in a dilemma. The mom really wants him to take lessons and he really wants to learn piano. I've thought of these options:

1. Say that he needs more maturity and rhythmic development. This may come with time. Perhaps he can begin lessons in a couple years.

2. Recommend that he take drum classes for several months to a year to develop his sense of rhythm.

3. Work with him. But spend the first several months just working on rhythm and aural skills.

I know that it will take a lot of time and effort to work with him. I think I can do it. But I'm wondering whether I really want to add this kind of stress on myself.

I would appreciate your thoughts and opinions. Thank you!

[outin]

1. Say that he needs more maturity and rhythmic development. This may come with time. Perhaps he can begin lessons in a couple years.

How would that come if he is not exposed to music? He is 8 years old and the building blocks are all there. He needs a teacher to help find the music and overcome the natural limitations he may have. Do you only take students that already have the basic skills? If so you probably are not the right teacher for him, he needs someone who enjoys a challenge.

[green]

The problem is not with his rhythm, it is with the pulse. Play some music, either on piano or Cd, and ask him to join in with you to feel the pulse. Clap along together to a Cd. Rhythm is subdivisions of a pulse, if you can find the pulse, you will find rhythm soon enough.

[lilla]

Was the mother in the room when you worked with him?  Most students work better when alone.  They are sometimes distracted by a parent in the room.  Sometimes even fearful of doing something wrong.  The spontaneity is lost.  Perhaps try some different scenarios before forming opinions.  It might still work out.

[keypeg]

The problem is not with his rhythm, it is with the pulse. Play some music, either on piano or Cd, and ask him to join in with you to feel the pulse. Clap along together to a Cd. Rhythm is subdivisions of a pulse, if you can find the pulse, you will find rhythm soon enough.

Isn't that something that gets taught?

[green]

I had a student recently who in a bar of 4/4 and straight 1/8 notes, clapping the rhythm, would piddle out in the middle of the bar, even when I tapped the pulse and counted and pointed to where we were in the bar. I finally discovered that if it was 2/4 she was fine (I drew a line in the middle of the bar!) - too much information? Who knows...

[green]

BTW, anyone actually practice rhythm exercises with students? I've seen a few books, any recommendations?

[sonata58]

How would that come if he is not exposed to music? He is 8 years old and the building blocks are all there. He needs a teacher to help find the music and overcome the natural limitations he may have. Do you only take students that already have the basic skills? If so you probably are not the right teacher for him, he needs someone who enjoys a challenge.

Good point, and well taken. I do realize that this is a skill that needs to be developed. However, this is the first time I have encountered a child who was seriously lacking in rhythmic skills. Most other children I've worked with (as young as five years old) could clap to a steady beat and clap back rhythmic patterns even with dotted quarter - eighth patterns even before beginning lessons.

[iansinclair]

It's perfectly possible that the skill may develop more easily than you think (one can always hope...).  It may be that the poor kid has never been exposed to something with rhythm!  Or at least not been encouraged -- or even allowed -- clap or dance or bang along with the beat.

I have known several ballet dancers in my time with perfectly horrible senses of rhythm when they began, but who developed very quickly once they got the initial feel.

The other thing to watch with rhythm sense is that, in my opinion at least, the way people naturally feel a major pulse, and the ease -- or lack of it -- varies very widely.  To use myself as an example, years ago (don't laugh) I was subjected to some ballroom dance lessons -- Arthur Murray?, I seem to recall -- and was the total despair of the teacher because although I felt the major pulse easily, I had trouble feeling the subdivisions.  As time has gone on -- perhaps because I really had to work at it -- I now have no trouble with any of the more common divisions (I still get hung up on 7/8, though...) and even things like 3 against 2 -- seem natural (I still have to think about things like 11 against 3 -- think Chopin -- but I can get them).

[sonata58]

It's perfectly possible that the skill may develop more easily than you think (one can always hope...).  It may be that the poor kid has never been exposed to something with rhythm!  Or at least not been encouraged -- or even allowed -- clap or dance or bang along with the beat.

You're right. I was thinking the same thing. I was just wondering whether it would be beneficial to spend so much time working on rhythm (and maybe not playing much piano), when he might be better off taking percussion lessons for a few months. Then, at least, he is actually playing an instrument, instead of clapping or tapping on the piano lid.

[bernadette60614]

Another thought coming from a parent of a boy around that age.  He's probably had lots of exposure to rhythm and different patterns of rhythm but never identified them as such.

I still have the beats of Wheels Go Round the Bus (and accompanying clapping) stuck in my mind.

He'd probably cringe if you asked him to clap that rhythm, but if he's listening to Justin Bieber or New Direction..those light pop songs have strong rhythms.

Sometimes with our son sometimes it is just accessing something from his experience to awaken that "Aha" moment.

[hfmadopter]

If there is another teacher in town who could teach him send him there. You already are thinking too hard about this and there isn't anything wrong with referring someone elsewhere, if it's for their better interest..

[sonata58]

Thanks for all your replies. I have decided to teach the boy and see how he progresses. Hopefully, I can help him develop this skill. If after several months and it is still an issue, I will make other recommendations then.

[dima_76557]

I have known several ballet dancers in my time with perfectly horrible senses of rhythm when they began, but who developed very quickly once they got the initial feel.

Of course. Two things develop rhythm:
1) training of motorics
2) training of the vestibular system

IMHO, the problem of abstraction (counting) with this particular student does not prove that there is no rhythmic feeling present.

[green]

Of course. Two things develop rhythm:
1) training of motorics
2) training of the vestibular system

IMHO, the problem of abstraction (counting) with this particular student does not prove that there is no rhythmic feeling present.

How do you train motorics and the vestibular system to develop rhythm?

[pianolka]

You can underlay the rythm with text, for example: crocodile = 2 quavers and 1 crotchet. I use it with my small pupils and they respond very good. You can invent the text in whole melody. It is funny for us