Chopin Etudes

[the_fervid_pig]

For a recent birthday present I was given a book of Chopin etudes, (Alfred Masterworks) and I really want to have a go at one. I have been playing about 6 months and so far have learnt Satie's Gnossiennes 1-3, Gymnopedie No. 1, Mendelssohn's Op. 30/6, Chopin's Prelude 10/4 and Nocturne 15/3, and I keep having a go at the Rach C# Minor. I really like opus 10/3 and 10/12. Are these beyond me atm? Can anyone suggest a good one to try for someone of my level or should I forget it for a bit? 

[outin]

For a recent birthday present I was given a book of Chopin etudes, (Alfred Masterworks) and I really want to have a go at one. I have been playing about 6 months and so far have learnt Satie's Gnossiennes 1-3, Gymnopedie No. 1, Mendelssohn's Op. 30/6, Chopin's Prelude 10/4 and Nocturne 15/3, and I keep having a go at the Rach C# Minor. I really like opus 10/3 and 10/12. Are these beyond me atm? Can anyone suggest a good one to try for someone of my level or should I forget it for a bit? 

6 months of playing altogether? I assume no teacher, if you are thinking about this?

I'd say forget about it. Unless you are some kind of a wonder man/woman...

[brogers70]

I'd say, put that book of Chopin Etudes on a shrine with some candles and a portrait of your favorite pianist, bow to it every day for 3-4 years, while taking lessons and practicing less difficult things very diligently. Then, when your teacher thinks you're ready, go for it.

[h_chopin148]

I'd say, put that book of Chopin Etudes on a shrine with some candles and a portrait of your favorite pianist, bow to it every day for 3-4 years, while taking lessons and practicing less difficult things very diligently. Then, when your teacher thinks you're ready, go for it.

electric candles though....wouldn't want that book catching on fire.

[mathandmusic]

I'd say, put that book of Chopin Etudes on a shrine with some candles and a portrait of your favorite pianist, bow to it every day for 3-4 years, while taking lessons and practicing less difficult things very diligently. Then, when your teacher thinks you're ready, go for it.

I'm opting to memorize and recite an inspirational quote in lieu of the bowing.

[birba]

The fervid pig?!  Good one...

[the_fervid_pig]

6 months of playing altogether? I assume no teacher, if you are thinking about this?

I'd say forget about it. Unless you are some kind of a wonder man/woman...

6 months altogether, though I could already read music, and play the saxophone. Bass clef was a new one on me though, I knew the notes, but never had to read it before. Had a month's worth of lessons back in January which was a present and really helped with the Mendelssohn piece but nothing aside from that. I'm no wonderwoman but try and put in 2-3 hours a day, though admittedly this isn't solid practise, I get distracted sometimes... Are a couple more preludes/nocturnes first the way to go then?

[outin]

6 months altogether, though I could already read music, and play the saxophone. Bass clef was a new one on me though, I knew the notes, but never had to read it before. Had a month's worth of lessons back in January which was a present and really helped with the Mendelssohn piece but nothing aside from that. I'm no wonderwoman but try and put in 2-3 hours a day, though admittedly this isn't solid practise, I get distracted sometimes... Are a couple more preludes/nocturnes first the way to go then?

These etudes are technically extremely hard, it's not just about learning the notes. They are extremely difficult to play without all kinds of tensions building up unless one has a solid foundation (which for me means something like 5-10 years of piano study with a teacher. Couple of years ago I thought I would just try to learn one of them trying REALLY slow, one measure at the time. It just proved impossible, my hands could not handle all the things happening there. And they still couldn't after two years of lessons and daily practice.

So I would say quite a few preludes, nocturnes and lots of other stuff (like baroque/classical) before it's worth to work on the etudes. Assuming you want them to sound the way they should.

[the_fervid_pig]

Thanks for the replies, I did have a look at 10/12 last night, (before I read these replies) and tried the first few bars, I got through it very slowly, and after a while did find it was getting under my fingers, but I think I'll leave it for a while before looking at them seriously.

[h_chopin148]

Thanks for the replies, I did have a look at 10/12 last night, (before I read these replies) and tried the first few bars, I got through it very slowly, and after a while did find it was getting under my fingers, but I think I'll leave it for a while before looking at them seriously.

That's a good idea. I just started my first etude this year and I'm now learning a second. I have been playing for about 7 years.

[hfmadopter]

That's a good idea. I just started my first etude this year and I'm now learning a second. I have been playing for about 7 years.

6-7 years is about the time I was introduced to the Chopin Etudes. I did some, can't even tell you which ones at the moment but I came no where near finishing the book of them. Schirmer's Library, Volume 33 book.

[h_chopin148]

6-7 years is about the time I was introduced to the Chopin Etudes. I did some, can't even tell you which ones at the moment but I came no where near finishing the book of them. Schirmer's Library, Volume 33 book.

I think the Paderewski Edition is the best edition, but that's just my opinon.

[virtuoso80]

For a recent birthday present I was given a book of Chopin etudes, (Alfred Masterworks) and I really want to have a go at one. I have been playing about 6 months and so far have learnt Satie's Gnossiennes 1-3, Gymnopedie No. 1, Mendelssohn's Op. 30/6, Chopin's Prelude 10/4 and Nocturne 15/3, and I keep having a go at the Rach C# Minor. I really like opus 10/3 and 10/12. Are these beyond me atm? Can anyone suggest a good one to try for someone of my level or should I forget it for a bit? 

I have a slightly differing opinion about when it's OK to start difficult works. IMO, anytime is fine, as long as 1. You've got someone to show you proper technique to approach it with. 2. You don't have unrealistic expectations. I've always tackled pieces that were beyond my level, because those were the pieces that excited me. I played around with the Chopin etudes for years, and they helped build my technique. You almost certainly won't be performing these pieces anytime soon, but if you enjoy the process of working on them regardless, they can certainly help make you better.

[ajspiano]

I came no where near finishing the book of them.

I believe horowitz felt a bit that way too..

I didn't touch them till about 10 years in I think it was.. and though I could get through them I honestly havent been that impressed with my performance of any of them until quite recently..  its more like 20 years in now..

[hfmadopter]

I believe horowitz felt a bit that way too..

I didn't touch them till about 10 years in I think it was.. and though I could get through them I honestly havent been that impressed with my performance of any of them until quite recently..  its more like 20 years in now..

Most of Chopin's works are a lifetime study, IMO !! You think you're happy with one of them and then you find something more. Horowitz to me was the master, if the day ever comes that I can express in his way just about any Chopin piece, I will be a very happy man.

The Chopin Etudes to me are studies, not final pieces to be performed but always works in progress. I know others feel differently than I do about this . There generally is an Etude to accompany other works. It's the same with Bach 2 and 3 part Inventions for me. Tools towards gaining or maintaining a skill to perform something else entirely. It's just the way I was taught to use these works. My teacher had her ways of doing things is all I can say. Like, here we will work on this Mozart Sonata next, do this Etude to augment that. The Mozart Sonata was with intent to perform it, the etude the tool to get you there.

[the_fervid_pig]

Some interesting replies, I've really enjoyed reading through them. I think I may continue to dabble with the 10/12, because I like it, and because I feel it will improve my LH, which isn't great! I'll approach it in the same way I'm doing with the Rach, I expect it may take 2 years or more to even be able to get through it, but I don't mind, I'm in no hurry, it's just that those are the pieces I want to play. I've no intention to ever perform anything, I'm learning just for my own pleasure.

[hfmadopter]

Some interesting replies, I've really enjoyed reading through them. I think I may continue to dabble with the 10/12, because I like it, and because I feel it will improve my LH, which isn't great! I'll approach it in the same way I'm doing with the Rach, I expect it may take 2 years or more to even be able to get through it, but I don't mind, I'm in no hurry, it's just that those are the pieces I want to play. I've no intention to ever perform anything, I'm learning just for my own pleasure.

Nothing wrong with that ! My teacher sometimes would have me working on just a section of an Etude, to master what that material was or to bolster the technique when it was required actually in another piece of music entirely. I took a look through my book of Etudes, there are pencil check marks here and there through the book indicating to study there. This was some 25 or 30 years ago, so I need a refresher to recall some of this stuff these days by physically having a look !

[ajspiano]

I agree with that sectional type work hfmadopter.  I think they constitute both tools/studies and concert pieces..

Not so long ago I did give a near beginner (grade 1-2 performance level pop/modern student) a few bars of a chopin etude. He was looking at a piano arrangement that had a LH figure in broken tenths..  b f# d f#, g d b d.. etc. it was way to hard at first.

I gave him 4 bars of the LH in 10/9. We played it through maybe 10 times with a bit of technical guidance from me and his song suddenly seemed a bit trivial.

...not that such ideas/methods need to utilise chopin specifically.

The danger for beginners is in pushing themselves too hard and having an expectation that they'll be able to play them well.. not realising that they are absolute monsters if you want to play them up to a professional standard.

[hfmadopter]

...not that such ideas/methods need to utilise chopin specifically.

The danger for beginners is in pushing themselves too hard and having an expectation that they'll be able to play them well.. not realising that they are absolute monsters if you want to play them up to a professional standard.

I agree on with the above statements.. I would add too that the idea of a sequence of composers works is a good one as well. As is learning any given piece to a certain level and then coming back to it to improve on it over time. Perhaps several times in a lifetime.

Listen to Horowitz in early concerts, his later ones are often more polished, same pieces. People get this idea that they will learn a new piece to the ultimate level first time around. Most of the great pianists matured with these pieces.

[j_menz]

People get this idea that they will learn a new piece to the ultimate level first time around. Most of the great pianists matured with these pieces.

Indeed. IMO, if you can't mature with a piece, and it with you, it probably wasn't worth doing in the first place.

[ajspiano]

learning any given piece to a certain level and then coming back to it to improve on it over time. Perhaps several times in a lifetime.

Couldn't count the number of times I previously thought I knew how to play something..  now I just work on the premise that I know bugger all but am extremely good at identifying things that don't work and getting better.

[chopin2015]

The worst is playing an etude and then hearing Horowitz doing god knows how and what. And then where and how...sometimes...I've felt that way about a couple etudes. It should be the fun part, in figuring out how to make those sounds and get the most out of the music. It is so much more than just a technical piece. There are ideas that should be developed within you. Untill I figure out how Horowitz rolls 17th chords....I can't feel right, mayne.

[hfmadopter]

The worst is playing an etude and then hearing Horowitz doing god knows how and what. And then where and how...sometimes...I've felt that way about a couple etudes. It should be the fun part, in figuring out how to make those sounds and get the most out of the music. It is so much more than just a technical piece. There are ideas that should be developed within you. Untill I figure out how Horowitz rolls 17th chords....I can't feel right, mayne.

I know better but I'd like to think there was magic involved ! 17th rolls, how about almost faint sound but with clarity, never a muddy overtone, could be left hand , right hand melody, could be Baroque or Chopin but none the less, then an explosion of sound all from the same keyboard. Some day I should do half as well and die a pleased man with myself.

 Of course the piano and the tuner deserve some credit too. Watch a Horowitz close up clip and you can see the fine touch his piano accepted from him. He didn't have to fight with the piano, it responded to his wishes. Did you know he literally took his own pianos to his world tour recitals and his piano tuner as well ?

[ajspiano]

I know better but I'd like to think there was magic involved ! 17th rolls, how about almost faint sound but with clarity, never a muddy overtone, could be left hand , right hand melody, could be Baroque or Chopin but none the less, then an explosion of sound all from the same keyboard. Some day I should do half as well and die a pleased man with myself.

 Of course the piano and the tuner deserve some credit too. Watch a Horowitz close up clip and you can see the fine touch his piano accepted from him. He didn't have to fight with the piano, it responded to his wishes. Did you know he literally took his own pianos to his world tour recitals and his piano tuner as well ?

regulated daily, precisely 46g downweight.

[chopin2015]

Thanks hfm and ajs! I am sure our bodies could do the math and adjust based on keyboard resistance and force coming from the body. When I do not play at home, I do feel more burning in the tendins from trying to play as loud and maybe even faster. But, I won't lie....it would be sweet to tour with one piano (although it doesn't mean the acoustics of each venue will be the same and the piano will still sound different).

[birba]

regulated daily, precisely 46g downweight.

Is that light or heavy? 

[hfmadopter]

Is that light or heavy?  

For average people 50-55 grams would be considered normal or so called ideal ( we all know how subjective a statement that is though !). So 46 is on the light side of that obviously.

Edit:

I should add that determining touch weight is not just a matter of stacking weight on the keys, and that it should return with some 30 grams less weight than it goes down with. Adjusting weight depends on the action, often it's by adding or subtracting weight to the keys or in some cases altering auxiliary jack spring tension. So if you want to hot rod your Steinway's action, read up a bit !

[virtuoso80]

The worst is playing an etude and then hearing Horowitz doing god knows how and what. And then where and how...sometimes...I've felt that way about a couple etudes. It should be the fun part, in figuring out how to make those sounds and get the most out of the music. It is so much more than just a technical piece. There are ideas that should be developed within you. Untill I figure out how Horowitz rolls 17th chords....I can't feel right, mayne.

The more relaxed I learned to play, the more Horowitz-y my playing got. Not saying I sound like him, just that when I really start to get a piece under my fingers, the ease of arm motion starts to remind me.

[chopin2015]

The more relaxed I learned to play, the more Horowitz-y my playing got. Not saying I sound like him, just that when I really start to get a piece under my fingers, the ease of arm motion starts to remind me.

Nice! I figured out some of the things he was doing with op 25.5 today...but he's still too bad azzz for me to handle!

[hfmadopter]

The more relaxed I learned to play, the more Horowitz-y my playing got. Not saying I sound like him, just that when I really start to get a piece under my fingers, the ease of arm motion starts to remind me.

My mind is there ( has matured enough) for the expression, my fingers, hands , arms, general articulation are not up to it, no way ! I can make some simpler passages sound convincingly similar but not even close otherwise. He makes a role model for expression though, IMO. He dared to do what others did not and  didn't care what the critics had to say about it, even laughed about it ( musically I mean, other aspects of his life he may not have been so secure about)...

[the_fervid_pig]

I decided to have a go at the Etude in F Minor, 10/9, I can manage the first page at a much reduced speed, though it looks a little more difficult further on. I'll keep gradually building it up, and it'll take as long as it takes!

[h_chopin148]

I decided to have a go at the Etude in F Minor, 10/9, I can manage the first page at a much reduced speed, though it looks a little more difficult further on. I'll keep gradually building it up, and it'll take as long as it takes!

That's a good etude to start with. It was my first etude too. The left hand figures can be rather trickythough later on and some of the octaves in the right hand. Make sure you have good fingerings.  Dynamic contrasts are also very important for this piece. The piece should start of soft and gradually grow.

[the_fervid_pig]

Thanks for that, the edition I have has suggested fingerings so I'll try them and take it from there.

[danhuyle]

I started with Op10 No9, then later on 10/12

[h_chopin148]

Thanks for that, the edition I have has suggested fingerings so I'll try them and take it from there.

What edition do you have?

[the_fervid_pig]

I have the Alfred Masterworks edition.

[h_chopin148]

I have the Alfred Masterworks edition.

I've never looked at that edition before. I use the Paderewski edition.  For most of my music I usually use the Henle editions though. 

[j_menz]

I use the Paderewski edition.   

Here, you'll need some of this:



 

[h_chopin148]

Here, you'll need some of this:



 

actually the books in the Henle edition fall apart a lot faster. You should see what my book of Beethoven sonatas look like..... but at least there's good editor's markings 

[ted]

I too have an easy going approach, aside from which, I have never found any piece or aspect of piano playing to improve by my not doing it. Just use common sense and enjoy yourself. Chopin studies still sound pretty nice played considerably slower than ninety miles an hour and stopping short of belting the instrument through the floorboards. I don't like classical music much any more but I do keep up a few of these studies because they are a very beautiful means to my end of improvisation. He was a real artist, you can learn a hell of a lot from him.

So give them a go; just the ones you like though.

[the_fervid_pig]

Cheers Ted, I intend to, though there are rather a few I like, I get the feeling I'll be pushing up daisies before I get through them all. The Alfred edition's spiral bound, so hopefully it'll hold together for some time to come. I have an old French Durand edition of the Nocturnes revised by Debussy, appears to be from 1946 but judging from the study notes peppered throughout it's been in regular use ever since, though it's showing its age now.