Brahms Paganini Variations Book I Var. IV, Trills

[louispodesta]

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate fingerings for the first set of fourth and fifth fingers trills.  I can reach the octave with one and four, but trilling is out of the question.

I have the Cortot edition which allows for the rolling of the chord, which is the way Brahms played it because he rolled everything (Moriz Rosenthal).  However, the fingering Cortot suggests after the intial 4,5, is 2 and 3, and then 3 on the next sixteenth note.

As I said in another thread, I heard Olga Kern try and play this piece in recital, and she also rolled the chord and used an alternate fingering.  Her foot rarely came off of and released the pedal so it really didn't make any difference.

To date, I have come up with a variation which allows me to get it up to speed.  I use 4,5, and then 1,4, and then finish with 1,5,4.  By throwing the hand into the roll, it sets up a rotation motion which doesn't beat up the fourth finger.

Also, Cortot says that you should play it as two triplets, and not three duplets.  Earl Wild and Michelangeli played it as duplets, but Thibaudet plays it in triplets but at a slower tempo.

Further, Cortot uses the term "shake" as opposed to the word trill.  I personally think Brahms played it as a true shake.  However, Carl Friedberg told his students that when Brahms stayed up with him until four in the morning coaching him on his compositions, the only piece he left out was the Paganini Variations.  This was supposedly due to his advanced age.

[j_menz]

Are you asking us or are you telling us?

Use 45 - don't be a wimp!

The bass should be in groups of three, but the fingering makes groups of two an easy "mistake".

[perfect_pitch]

Use 45 - don't be a wimp!

Yeah, no offense, but I have smaller than average male hands. I can barely reach a 10th, and doing an octave with 1-3 is excrutiatingly difficult, but even I got the hang of the trills.

Just suck it up and do what's asked. This is the top of the line repertoire after all - if you're asking for ways to cheat, you're not ready for it yet.

[louispodesta]

In all of my 61 years, I have never come across the musical term "wimp."  But, then again, my mother raised a gentelman.

If my small hand, with spindly fingers could play 4, 5, I would.  And, as I stated in my original thread, Cortot obviously came across way more than one student who could not manage 4,5.

I have Earl Wild's and Claudio Arrau's recordings of this great piece, but I do not have that size hand;  neither does Olga Kern, as a I related earlier.

I guess they should take away her Cliburn Gold Medal because she is a wimp!

So, if there is anyone out there who would like to contribute to this discussion without making veiled references to their manhood, I would greatly appreciate it.

[dima_76557]

@ louispodesta

I have a good stretch myself, but I think Cortot's idea of 4-5, 2-3 (or perhaps 3-4?) is not so bad. The idea is to release the thumb note of the octave just in time to be able to do it that way. Here are two clips by two women with small hands, and they seem to be doing just that, especially the second.
Lilya Zilberstein

Sara Vujadinovic:

[louispodesta]

dima_ogorodnikov:

Thank you very much, this was extremely helpful.

You see guys, this is how it is done.

Maybe you need to visit my colleague at the Sydney Conservatorium, Dr. Neal Peres Da Costa, and have him teach you some manners!

[perfect_pitch]

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate fingerings for the first set of fourth and fifth fingers trills.  I can reach the octave with one and four, but trilling is out of the question.

Just out of curiosity - what is your full reach... I presume you can never reach an 11th?

I like how you didn't answer my question - Can you reach a tenth in full??? Can you play an octave with 1-4? or 1-3???

[louispodesta]

My coach is Dr. Thomas Mark.

He is a certified Alexander Technique instructor, who was a practice coach under the late Dorothy Taubman (www.pianomap.com).  He is the author of the widely recommended book, "What Every Pianist Needs To Know About The Body."

Therefore, I do not live in a world of "stretch," i.e. the outstretched/ulnar deviated hand.

My arm is moved laterally to cover the key that needs to be struck.  And, after a particular note or chord is struck, the hand is then automatically relaxed/collapsed.

Even though the video of the first pianist was instructive, it was extremely painful to watch.

[j_menz]

I don't see what the size of ones hand has to do with anything here. You are going to roll the chords anyway (and I think that is correct here irrespective of need), so finishing on 4 and trilling 45 seems eminently doable unless you can't do a satisfactory 4-5 trill. It leaves the fingers well positioned for easily doing the rest. No stretching involved here.

If you can't do a 4-5 trill, you're going to have to learn it someday - they aren't always avoidable,  so now is as good as time as any. Don't shirk the opportunity. They are nasty intimidating things at first - hence the wimp reference - but do need to be mastered if you are going to be playing things at this level.

Oh, and don't take offence so easily.

[dima_76557]

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate fingerings for the first set of fourth and fifth fingers trills.  I can reach the octave with one and four, but trilling is out of the question.

I have actually analyzed the second clip (downloaded it and slowed it down): Sara Vujadinovic clearly involves her thumb in the trill. She plays 4-5, immediately releasing the thumb and then continues the trill with at least 1-3 (maybe 2 is also involved for one note, but I can't judge from the clip) and a perfect combination of forearm rotation and finger activity, which seems to be just what you need from your description.

[le_poete_mourant]

The problem is that when you try to involve the first or 2nd finger in the trill, it takes time to make the switch and the trill doesn't start as fast as it should or sound as fluid.  I do 4-5-3-5-3-5-3-5 etc for all of them. 

[dima_76557]

The problem is that when you try to involve the first or 2nd finger in the trill, it takes time to make the switch and the trill doesn't start as fast as it should or sound as fluid.

For Sara Vujadinovic (clip 2), that doesn't seem too much of a problem. I find her rendition quite convincing without the slightest hint at timing trouble. While her pinky plays, the thumb is already in place to play the next note.

[louispodesta]

dima_ogorodnikov:

Thank you once again for taking the extra time and effort to slow down the tape.  I also have tried the following variation which is what might be happening.  I start with 4,5, then 1,3, and finish with 1,5,4.

As you have accurately pointed out this involves a natural forearm rotation, which is the method my coach Thomas Mark, who learned it from Dorothy Taubman, teaches for all trills.

And as far as j_menz is concerned, if you keep up this physiological fantasy that you can you use your fourth finger any way you want, you will eventually end up like Fleisher and Graffman.  Earl Wild states in his memoir that, when he was at Juilliard, Fleisher and Graffman's former students used to come to him with hand problems, and they were all related to misuse of the fourth finger.

The world is littered with bunged-up pianists who thought they could tough it out at all costs and accomplish the impossible.  Hopefully, that will not happen to you.

[nyiregyhazi]

dima_ogorodnikov:
3
Thank you once again for taking the extra time and effort to slow down the tape.  I also have tried the following variation which is what might be happening.  I start with 4,5, then 1,3, and finish with 1,5,4.

As you have accurately pointed out this involves a natural forearm rotation, which is the method my coach Thomas Mark, who learned it from Dorothy Taubman, teaches for all trills.

And as far as j_menz is concerned, if you keep up this physiological fantasy that you can you use your fourth finger any way you want, you will eventually end up like Fleisher and Graffman.  Earl Wild states in his memoir that, when he was at Juilliard, Fleisher and Graffman's former students used to come to him with hand problems, and they were all related to misuse of the fourth finger.

The world is littered with bunged-up pianists who thought they could tough it out at all costs and accomplish the impossible.  Hopefully, that will not happen to you.

That's an exceedingly cheap strawman argument. Beethoven wrote countless passages that demand genuine trills with 3/4 and 5 as did Liszt. So you should also argue that they are encouraging misuse of the 4th finger (as is any teacher who does not ban such compositions among their students), if you wish to exercise consistency. Or better still, drop the desire to be argumentative against that which is in inconvenient and accept that if you aren't able to do it, you have a definable technical hole- that ought to be filled in and which in no way ought to lead to injury. You may manage pull the wool over some people's eyes in an argument, but allowing such blatant cognitive dissonance will not change objective reality.


there's nothing wrong with creative fingerings, if you acknowledge that lack of technique is the issue or if it definitely serves a musical purpose best. However, it's deeply unhealthy for a pianist to throw blame around on small hands and look for any excuse not to face up to reality and improve themself. Do you think Alicia de Larrocha got to play La Campanella to virtuoso level by ducking out of trilling with weaker fingers and finding any excuse under the sun to kid herself that she didn't need to learn how to? No.

[j_menz]

And as far as j_menz is concerned, if you keep up this physiological fantasy that you can you use your fourth finger any way you want, you will eventually end up like Fleisher and Graffman.  Earl Wild states in his memoir that, when he was at Juilliard, Fleisher and Graffman's former students used to come to him with hand problems, and they were all related to misuse of the fourth finger.

Being able to do 45 trills is hardly "any way you want". They are a genuine part of an advanced pianists required toolkit and simply cannot be avoided (unless one avoids repertoire on that count).

Perhaps if you spent a bit more time actually doing and less time reading about doing, you would have a clearer idea of what you speak.

And, for the record, I have been playing the piano longer than you, I believe, including more advanced repertoire, without injury.

[nyiregyhazi]

Being able to do 45 trills is hardly "any way you want". They are a genuine part of an advanced pianists required toolkit and simply cannot be avoided (unless one avoids repertoire on that count).

Perhaps if you spent a bit more time actually doing and less time reading about doing, you would have a clearer idea of what you speak.

And, for the record, I have been playing the piano longer than you, I believe, including more advanced repertoire, without injury.

Don't let yourself get into a contest with him. He's just a crank, not greatly different from keyboardclass.  All this talk of big repertoire, but the only evidence of his playing on youtube shows no signs of the technique to execute such demands. It's all coarse arm shoves and no fingers or control of tonal nuance. I'm not surprised that he cannot execute a 4 5 trill so much as by the fact that he's supposedly doing all these big pieces.

He's more than welcome to prove me wrong by uploading some of the repertoire he claims to be in command of, but (having seen the sheer level of stiffness in his film) I can't picture his fingers getting around passage work with lightness or ease. He wouldn't greatly trouble me, were it not for his constant preaching about how exercises and other things are a waste of time. People who don't have the basic tool kit are in no position to preach about what you can do without and especially not to say you SHOULD do without. If he sorted out his basic quality of movement, he'd be in a position to do exercises without any harm.It's about time we saw some results in the repertoire if all of these big claims are going to continue.

[le_poete_mourant]

For Sara Vujadinovic (clip 2), that doesn't seem too much of a problem. I find her rendition quite convincing without the slightest hint at timing trouble. While her pinky plays, the thumb is already in place to play the next note.

Ok, but I was talking about a general problem people have with this. Not everybody is going to be able to pull that off.

[perfect_pitch]

Therefore, I do not live in a world of "stretch," i.e. the outstretched/ulnar deviated hand.

You know what... That's got to be the wankiest answer I've ever heard. I'm just going to requote my original statement.

Yeah, no offense, but I have smaller than average male hands. I can barely reach a 10th, and doing an octave with 1-3 is excrutiatingly difficult, but even I got the hang of the trills.

Just suck it up and do what's asked. This is the top of the line repertoire after all - if you're asking for ways to cheat, you're not ready for it yet.

[nyiregyhazi]

You know what... That's got to be the wankiest answer I've ever heard. I'm just going to requote my original statement.

Yeah, another ludicrous strawman. Stretching does not in any way imply ulnar deviation (which actively interferes with ability to open to wide intervals). And neither is it a bad thing in itself, depending on the technique used. Either way, you can't just decide never to open your hand, or insist that the reason you can't trill properly is because you're unwilling to stretch (which has zero to do with trilling). We're dealing with a classic case of a person taking up a few little pieces of information and then shoe-horning them in at any available opportunity, without proper consideration of what they are replying to or the content.

As for his claim to be a gentleman, note the thread where he refers to a mentally ill man as a "spastic lunatic".

[perfect_pitch]

As for his claim to be a gentleman, note the thread where he refers to a mentally ill man as a "spastic lunatic".

HOLY CRAP... I can't believe I missed that... SERIOUSLY?!?

You know what... I'm personally hoping that an ignore function can be implemented soon where we can ignore the posts of certain people of our choosing, because to make fun of someone who's mentally disabled is just SICKENING!!!



Mr Podesta - you f@#$ing SICKEN ME!!!

[louispodesta]

David Helfgott is not some quadrapalegic in a wheelchair who got there because of an automobile accident.  He is a former child prodigy who suffered multiple nervous breakdowns due to gross mis-management of his career.

I have low-level Parkinson's disease along with psoriatic arthritis which prevents me from sitting or standing for more than 20 minutes.   Without my medications and supplements, I would be dead or in that wheelchair, with my fingers puffed-up like sausages.

Mr. Helfgott was glorified and accordingly hyped by the movie Shine.  He could have stopped the process at any time, but instead chose to record two worthless albums, and go out on tour which made him a very rich man.

The general public had absolutely no idea that he can't play.   They were ripped off and lied to.   And, Mr. Helfgott knows it!

The reason I care so passionately about this is that thousands and thousands of hard working classical pianists have worked their asses off and gotten nowhere.   Then, this clown comes out and gets rich ripping people off!

And don't hand me this gargbage about he doesn't know what is going on.  He knows perfectly well what he has done.

Before the movie came out, he tried his dog and pony show in the Soviet Union.  After the first disastrous concerto performance, everyone turned in their tickets and the rest of the tour was cancelled.  The Soviet government even refused to let him leave the country until his brother wired money from Israel so the musicians could be paid.

Disabled people don't con millions of people out of their hard earned money by perpetrating a fraud.

[nyiregyhazi]

So you acknowledge that he's had genuine nervous break downs yet consider it okay to call him a lunatic spastic? And the fact that he isn't physically disabled makes it okay to use the word spastic? A 60 year old man who thinks it's fine to call people spastics as long as they are able bodied? Just like it'd okay to call people queers or fags etc as long as they are not gay?

Nobody here thinks David helfgott is a great pianist. By using vile language about the man you expose yourself as a bitter and jealous person- who is envious of a innocent and mentally unwell man who just likes playing the piano and was exploited for a media circus. Directing any resentment at him on an emotional level (rather than at the media circus, on an objective level) shows an extremely unpleasant side to your person.

I'm stunned that you think simply pointing out what we all know (ie that he's no great pianist) will make everything okay. Incidentally, the way you plough through the opening of brahms 117 (as if you have not the slightest interest in listening in to the character or quality of each melodic note before plodding into the next) reminds me of how helfgott does the same in the melodies of the Rachmaninoff 3rd. Ask yourself whether you have any right being on a stage next time you direct your resentment at him. He was out to make music, whether to a truly professional level or not and whether he was put there by publicists or not. I doubt whether he realised his lack of 1st class musicianship any more than you do.

[le_poete_mourant]

I have low-level Parkinson's disease along with psoriatic arthritis which prevents me from sitting or standing for more than 20 minutes.   Without my medications and supplements, I would be dead or in that wheelchair, with my fingers puffed-up like sausages.

Mr. Helfgott was glorified and accordingly hyped by the movie Shine.  He could have stopped the process at any time, but instead chose to record two worthless albums, and go out on tour which made him a very rich man.

The general public had absolutely no idea that he can't play.   They were ripped off and lied to.   And, Mr. Helfgott knows it!

The reason I care so passionately about this is that thousands and thousands of hard working classical pianists have worked their asses off and gotten nowhere.   Then, this clown comes out and gets rich ripping people off!

Disabled people don't con millions of people out of their hard earned money by perpetrating a fraud.

Several points to add:

Whether David Helfgott is the manipulator or the victim in this situation hardly matters.  However, it seems that what you are most concerned about is the making of money rather than the pursuit of art. Pianists who work their asses off don't get nowhere. Perhaps they don't become rich and famous, but if that's what you're aiming for when you embark on a career as a classical pianist then pick a different career.  Working your ass off gets you somewhere, if you work in the right way: it gets you artistry, skill, and the reward of playing the greatest music ever written.

Secondly, the movie Shine delivered exactly what people want when they go to see a movie: a compelling story and entertainment. The "general public" was not ripped off if they bought his albums. If anything, they were exposed to some classical music, and are more than free to go purchase additional recordings, and may very well have. At least it got some people interested. It's also worth mentioning that he is not the only musician to ever record a bad album and make money off of it, nor is he the only musician to ever perform poorly in a concert. That is the risk that one takes as a willing audience member.

Thirdly, disabled people are certainly capable of committing fraud. David Helfgott's status as a disabled person has nothing to do with whether he conned "millions of people out of their hard earned money by perpetrating a fraud." But, as I've said before, selling an album or concert tickets or a movie is not a con: you are giving people exactly what they pay for. Whether it is good quality or not is immaterial, and the risk you take as a participant in the market.

[louispodesta]

I watch old films on cable, and have not been to a movie in 20 years.  As a person who has been trained in the arts, including six semester hours of acting classes, I believe in standards.  Today's Hollywood doesn't even know what that means.

You are what is called an apologist.  And, unfortunately, the world is filled with people bending over backwards to justify improper acts of behavior.  Just today, I heard someone attempt to justify the bombing in Boston by saying that the men's mother had radicalized them.  Bull!

I have had tremors my entire 61 years, and I have to take Primodone and Inderal everyday in order to practice.  Additionally, I have had neurofeedback training, and I daily practice cardiac breath control.

David Helfgott's wife is his former psychiatric nurse who knows full well all the ins and outs of his spaticity (yes, that is the medical term for it), which is as a result of psychotropic drugs frying his brain.

This man, who is not allowed to drive a car, and who most likely does not even bathe or shave himself, is in no way able perform at the piano at any level of competency.

The movie Shine was a classic Hollwood comeback story, except, Mr. Helfgott never came back.  And, the producers who made the film knew it from day one, and yet, they still put this fake out there for dozens of media interviews, as if he was the real thing.

There isn't a major talent agency or conductor that will have anything to do with the man.  That is why he spends his time down in Australia as a nightclub act fiddllng around at the piano and rambling and giggling at his audiences.

The classical music producers at RCA knew his albums were garbage, and they still put them out in order to capitalize on the publicty of the movie.  A non-apoligist like myslef would not call that bad judgement.  He would call it fraud, which is what David Helfgott is!

Hey, I have an idea.  Let's get some Hollywood producer to go down to Australia and make a film about about some guy sitting at the piano rambling and giggling at his audence.  You think?

[nyiregyhazi]

I watch old films on cable, and have not been to a movie in 20 years.  As a person who has been trained in the arts, including six semester hours of acting classes, I believe in standards.  Today's Hollywood doesn't even know what that means.

You are what is called an apologist.  And, unfortunately, the world is filled with people bending over backwards to justify improper acts of behavior.  Just today, I heard someone attempt to justify the bombing in Boston by saying that the men's mother had radicalized them.  Bull!

I have had tremors my entire 61 years, and I have to take Primodone and Inderal everyday in order to practice.  Additionally, I have had neurofeedback training, and I daily practice cardiac breath control.

David Helfgott's wife is his former psychiatric nurse who knows full well all the ins and outs of his spaticity (yes, that is the medical term for it), which is as a result of psychotropic drugs frying his brain.

This man, who is not allowed to drive a car, and who most likely does not even bathe or shave himself, is in no way able perform at the piano at any level of competency.

The movie Shine was a classic Hollwood comeback story, except, Mr. Helfgott never came back.  And, the producers who made the film knew it from day one, and yet, they still put this fake out there for dozens of media interviews, as if he was the real thing.

There isn't a major talent agency or conductor that will have anything to do with the man.  That is why he spends his time down in Australia as a nightclub act fiddllng around at the piano and rambling and giggling at his audiences.

The classical music producers at RCA knew his albums were garbage, and they still put them out in order to capitalize on the publicty of the movie.  A non-apoligist like myslef would not call that bad judgement.  He would call it fraud, which is what David Helfgott is!

Hey, I have an idea.  Let's get some Hollywood producer to go down to Australia and make a film about about some guy sitting at the piano rambling and giggling at his audence.  You think?

Other than the fact that you are primarily repeating yourself, without any obvious signs of what your points are supposed to be made in response to, you are also grossly contradicting yourself.

Amidst the same old angry bitterness, you acknowledge that the man cannot drive, shave or bathe himself? Yet you feel he has a level of cognition that would tell him he's a poor musician, and suggest that he is on some devious macchiavellian plan to defraud? Who are you trying to kid?

It's just embarrassing how you try to turn all this angry personal jealousy of a man who cannot even look after himself into an objective expose. The more you talk, the more you expose how deeply bitter and unpleasant the roots of your views are. you're no better a pianist than helfgott, so get over it.


PS helfgott performed the Rachmaninoff 3rd in the musikverein in Vienna not long ago. he continues to play in big halls- not merely in nightclubs. regardless of whether that is just- what makes you think that it's okay to continually be plucking utter nonsense out of thin air and then stating it as if it were fact? This has happened so frequently that don't trust a single thing you say any more. If you're going to carry on with bitter rants that are supported by whatever facts are convenient to create, then you can be pretty damned sure that you won't find many "apologists" on this site.

[j_menz]

As a person who has been trained in the arts, including six semester hours of acting classes, I believe in standards.  Today's Hollywood doesn't even know what that means.

That must have been some 6 hours. 

Incidentally, it's spasticity, not spaticity, and I do not believe that is his condition at all.

You seem remarkably passionate (or at least wordy) about something which would appear to not actually impact you at all. As you claim to be a gentleman (albeit one who cannot actually spell the word), you would know, and in theory at least ascribe to, the practice of nil nisi bonum. Perhaps you should remind yourself of it.

[louispodesta]

Six semester hours mean two semesters, as in one year of study.  Also, enclosed is the consumate critique on David Helfgott from "Down Under." It pretty much says it all.  https://www.denisdutton.com/helfgott.htm

Plus, of the two commercial recordings released by RCA, the American journal Fanfare Magazine was critical not only of Helfgott himself, but also of his producers, who were "marketing Helfgott's pain.

Then, there is this comment from the critic from the British magazine "Gramaphone," of the two RCA CD's, followed by a critique from Tony Tommasini of the New York Times, who I know, when he reviewed this "fake."

"The British magazine Gramophone was similarly scathing about the exploitative nature of their issue, which, the magazine said, marketed Helfgott as an "unsung genius" when it was obvious from the recordings that he was not."

"On stage, Helfgott is known for his unusual platform manner. In 1997, critic Anthony Tommasini noted that Helfgott "stares into the hall and renders a nonstop commentary of grunts, groans and mutterings".

Finally, I sincerely hope to be continually challenged on this because, in regards formal aesthetic criticism, there is no music critic in the world who will agree with you.

David Helgott is a liar, a fake, and a fraud, who continues to rip-off audiences with his clown act.  He is not a true genius, but is instead only an ordinary garden variety con artist.

I will tell you what:  the next time a student sits down at the piano, you tell them with a straight face that, in order to be inspired/motivated by their art, they should follow the example of those who have succesfully gone before them, like Mr. Helfgott.

[j_menz]

Is there anything you know that hasn't come out of a book (or in this case wikipedia)? Have you ever actually heard Helfgott play?  And what is the source of your obsession?

BTW "consummate critique" isn't really a synonym for "a critique I agree with", though you are not the first to use it in this self serving sense.

[nyiregyhazi]

Finally, I sincerely hope to be continually challenged on this because, in regards formal aesthetic criticism, there is no music critic in the world who will agree with you.

You don't actually listen, do you (either to yourself in the brahms extract on your youtube film or to the posts you reply to)? Can you quote one single place where someone here said that Helfgott is a good pianist? It's easy to see that you "hope" to be challenged- which is demonstrated all too well by the fact that you failed to notice that nobody said he's a good player. They commented on your despicable attitude. You haven't paid the slightest attention to the points actually made- but instead written another self-contradictory and obsolete rant. This is why you are destined to be viewed as an angry and bitter crank, rather than as a voice of reason. The points that were actually made and which you have yet to address include the following :

1. You have both acknowledged the reality of his condition and incapabilities it causes him and accused him of knowing fraud. These two things are rationally incompatible, suggesting that your accusations of fraud stem from pure emotive bitterness and jealousy. There cannot be the slightest objective possibility that he is both genuinely ill AND a fraud.

2 Although Helfgott is not a first rate pro, your own playing demonstrates neither superior technique nor superior musicianship. Given that you sincerely regard yourself as superior, we have evidence of how a person can be blind to their own standard even when of relatively sound mind- making a mockery of the idea that he is to be blamed rather than the those that marketed him. There is neither evidence nor logical reason to see him as a knowing fraud.


3. You have regularly plucked falsifiable assertions out of thin air and presented them as if fact (eg. the nonsense that Helfgott only plays in nightclubs in Australia - check his tour schedule). You do your credibility a gross disservice by making up whatever facts would support your beliefs and once again expose that your arguments stem from personal jealousy over interest in objective truth.


instead of digging yourself even further into the ground, try dealing with these points. nobody here has said they regard helfgott as a great pianist. All you are doing, other than telling us something we already know, is exposing something extremely unpleasant about yourself.

[nyiregyhazi]

Is there anything you know that hasn't come out of a book (or in this case wikipedia)? Have you ever actually heard Helfgott play?  And what is the source of your obsession?

BTW "consummate critique" isn't really a synonym for "a critique I agree with", though you are not the first to use it in this self serving sense.

interesting to see Tommasini being quoted as a credible voice- by a poster who elsewhere has gone a massive rant about what a hopeless critic he is. I'm almost wondering if there's someone who he hates even more- perhaps enough to use quotes from Helfgott as evidence against him. Emotions are generally portrayed as if somehow more profound and deep than cold objectivity. But it's really rather sad when people start with a gut feeling and then look for evidence to support it- without caring how often they contradict their own views from elsewhere. Still, not quite as impressive as managing to refer to Helfgott as both a mumbling fool who cannot wash or brush his own teeth and also as a macchiavellian genius fraudster, in a single post.

[nyiregyhazi]

If anyone wants to compare Helfgott's worthiness to be on a stage with that of his anti-fan, try here.

Obviously Mr Podesta feels he could do better than Helfgott, hence the jealousy, but I hear overwhelmingly more musicality in Helfgott's playing (despite the fact that it's still far less than I'd hope to hear from a concert pianist).

[marik1]

If anyone wants to compare Helfgott's worthiness to be on a stage with that of his anti-fan, try here.

Obviously Mr Podesta feels he could do better than Helfgott, hence the jealousy, but I hear overwhelmingly more musicality in Helfgott's playing (despite the fact that it's still far less than I'd hope to hear from a concert pianist).

Wow! I see very little correlation of this very mean spirited message with the original poster question. Since I have no any time or desire to find out how this thread got evolved to this point, I'll just give my take on the original question.

Does anyone have any suggestions for alternate fingerings for the first set of fourth and fifth fingers trills.  I can reach the octave with one and four, but trilling is out of the question.

I have the Cortot edition which allows for the rolling of the chord, which is the way Brahms played it because he rolled everything (Moriz Rosenthal).  However, the fingering Cortot suggests after the intial 4,5, is 2 and 3, and then 3 on the next sixteenth note.

As I said in another thread, I heard Olga Kern try and play this piece in recital, and she also rolled the chord and used an alternate fingering.  Her foot rarely came off of and released the pedal so it really didn't make any difference.

To date, I have come up with a variation which allows me to get it up to speed.  I use 4,5, and then 1,4, and then finish with 1,5,4.  By throwing the hand into the roll, it sets up a rotation motion which doesn't beat up the fourth finger.

Also, Cortot says that you should play it as two triplets, and not three duplets.  Earl Wild and Michelangeli played it as duplets, but Thibaudet plays it in triplets but at a slower tempo.

Further, Cortot uses the term "shake" as opposed to the word trill.  I personally think Brahms played it as a true shake.  However, Carl Friedberg told his students that when Brahms stayed up with him until four in the morning coaching him on his compositions, the only piece he left out was the Paganini Variations.  This was supposedly due to his advanced age.

It's been awhile since I played this piece and I don't have a score in front of me. I guess, 99.9% of pianists will be inclined to play the trill in this variation with something more comfortable than 4-5 (and I can assure you, the rest 0.1% won't ask this question, to start with :-)).

Very often I practiced it with 4-5 (just for heck of it--practicing of independence of 4-5 never hurts) all the way through the pattern and then 3 on the last note, following 4-5 on the next set. On the other hand, when I played it (and I am not in that 0.1%) I did it in duplets (fast tempo) and used 4-5-2-3-2-3-2-----3--4-5-2-3-2-3-2-----etc. I didn't roll the chords, but I have quite big hands.

You can use and experiment with whatever works with your hands the best. The main thing is to keep your hands free and relaxed at all times, so you can concentrate on conveying  right spirit of music.

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

Wow! I see very little correlation of this very mean spirited message with the original poster question. Since I have no any time or desire to find out how this thread got evolved to this point, I'll just give my take on the original question.

That was in the response to a series of bitter rants against helfgott, in which he was labelled a "spastic lunatic" and accused of being a knowing fraud. I'm not in the habit of being mean spirited except to those who deserve it. Podesta is no better a musician than the man he spews such venom against.

[pianist1976]

Going to the original question, this is my approach to this variation:

Chord: 124, (I don't do an arpeggio), I make a wrist movement releasing the thumb and play the trill with 3-5 and change to to 4-5 at the last moment to do the trill resolution with 3 and in order to prepare the next chord. I don't play the trill too much fast. All of this is accompanied by a subtle wrist rotation.

Just giving a few ideas. It works for me. I have an average hand, not big at all for a male.