Fixed 'Do' and perfect pitch

[m1469]

I can *finally* ask a question I've had for ages!  That's such a great feeling.  

OK.  Do people who have been raised in a fixed 'Do' system, where C is always 'Do,' and who *ALSO* have perfect pitch, always hear a given pitch in context of a scale?  I mean, if you hear a G, do you hear it as it would function in relation to 'Do'?  Do you hear it with a certain tendency like sol-do, or is it just an isolated pitch with no particular pull to anything else?  Or if you hear something like D, do you hear it as 're' and wanting to resolve down to 'do'?

I'm just thinking, because if you were raised in a fixed 'Do' system, you don't even know the note as C, and if you have perfect pitch, you would just identify a note as 'Do' right?  So, wouldn't you also identify all of the other pitches as they relate to 'Do'?  If you hear 'Re' then you hear it as a step above 'Do', am I right?  Ah gawd, I'm so happy to finally be getting this out!  I used to listen differently as a child, and I just know it was somehow instinctively connected to fixed do, without me having any idea what that is or knowing solfege.

[oxy60]

I get into this discussion all the time with friends who who come from a fixed DO system. They do hear the key quicker. The rest of us need to be told. Often on stage there are players from several different countries with different traditions. Where the problem happens with the fixed DO people is when they must tell us the key. Is it DO major or minor?

Buying replacement strings is also tricky. The shop only knows fixed DO but I want a "C" string. I had better be able to speak in "fixed DO" or  I will never get the string!

I have known very few people with perfect pitch in either system. Most of them only knew if it is a good "A" or a bad "A."

[birba]

I don't get it.  C is do.  It's just another name.  And for someone who has perfect pitch, do is do or c or ut or however you name it.  It's a pitch that has it's sound.  Like a color.  You could never mix up blue with red....and what is a fixed do?!  This sounds like one of ms. trick questions.

[ajspiano]

I don't get it.... and what is a fixed do?!  This sounds like one of ms. trick questions.

in some places the system is moveable DO..  where DO is not always C, rather it is always the root of the given key.

[gvans]

To be, is to DO. (Socrates)

To DO, is to be. (Jean Paul Sartre)

DO be, Do be, DO. (Frank Sinatra)


               Kurt Vonnegut

[birba]

in some places the system is moveable DO..  where DO is not always C, rather it is always the root of the given key.

but why would they do that? And where are these "some places"? The only instance i can think of doing something like that is if your transposing an aria for some diva.  Ohhhhh!  Now i'm beginning to get it.  Are you all talking about the various orchestral instruments that work in a different key?  Like the b-flat clarinet where the sound b-flat is their "c".  Or the french horn's c is the "f" sound?

[outin]

but why would they do that? And where are these "some places"?

This is how I learned it, it took a while before the Italian and French system of naming the keys of the pieces made sense to me

Sol-fa was only used for singing when I  was a kid. Letter names were always used with instruments.

[ajspiano]

but why would they do that? And where are these "some places"?

china, the US, UK, Australia, canada, hungary...

[birba]

But i'm still not getting the gist of this thread.  Are you just talkng about the names of the notes?  Or transposing orchestral instruments?  And what does this all have to do with perfect pitch?!  Please spell it out for me.  I'm as dense as a wombat.   Maybe ms. could elucidate her ponderings more clearly...?

[ajspiano]

I think she's asking if people with perfect pitch are at all aware of relative pitch concepts or deal exclusively in absolute sounds without recognising chord progressions and such.

The fixed do solfa is probably relevant because those who were exposed to moveable do would have learnt relative pitch by default.. 

[birba]

Thank you ajs!  I sort of understand.  I was completely unaware that there were places where you learned with a moveable do.  In fact, i still don't really believe that.  I do have perfect pitch and i know the concept of relative pitch.  That's where they give you a fixed note, like do, and you can figure out the other notes.  Ah-ha, i think i'm getting it now.  They might play an f, and lie and say that was do.  And you would hear do and think it was sol.  Right?  But i don't think anyone with relative pitch could confuse those two notes.  Someone said to me once that perfect pitch was only memory of having learned the notes as a child.  But this is something that has been fully discussed before.

I'm just thinking, because if you were raised in a fixed 'Do' system, you don't even know the note as C, and if you have perfect pitch, you would just identify a note as 'Do' right?  So, wouldn't you also identify all of the other pitches as they relate to 'Do'?

this i don't get.    Shouldn't that  read "...if you have RELATIVE pitch, you would just..."?

[oxy60]

The only solfeggio I have heard was for a diatonic scale. What are the solfeggio sounds for a minor scale?

[birba]

Whoa!  Wait a minute!   What the h... are we talking about here?!  Solfeggio is solfeggio.  It has to do with reading the notes in a speaking or singing voice as you conduct with your hand-  What does minor or major have to do with it?  This whole thread is held together with just that.  A very fine thread.  All I hear is gibberish.  What is everyone talking about?!?!?!?!?!?  I have a feeling ms.  is behind it all.  Have you noticed she hasn't even been back once?  It's the throwing the stone in the pond thing...

[pbryld]

Whoa!  Wait a minute!   What the h... are we talking about here?!  Solfeggio is solfeggio.  It has to do with reading the notes in a speaking or singing voice as you conduct with your hand-  What does minor or major have to do with it?  This whole thread is held together with just that.  A very fine thread.  All I hear is gibberish.  What is everyone talking about?!?!?!?!?!?  I have a feeling ms.   is behind it all.  Have you noticed she hasn't even been back once?  It's the throwing the stone in the pond thing...

With solfége, the first note in a major scale is "do", in a minor, it's "la". Otherwise they are the same (not including harmonic and melodic minor of course).

I believe a person with perfect pitch would recognize 'do' only as the 'do' in a 'c' major scale. That's why perfect pitch is quite unlucky when dealing with things like this. Relative pitch is much more handy.

[birba]

I resign.

[pbryld]

I resign.

Haven't you been taught solfége?

A major scale is: do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do. In C major, the "la" is an "A", therefore, A minor starts on "la". In hamornic minor, you need to raise the "G", so instead of "so", it's "si".

[outin]

The names of the chromatic syllables and other basic information about tonic sol-fa is available here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solf%C3%A8ge

[birba]

Haven't you been taught solfége?

A major scale is: do-re-mi-fa-so-la-ti-do. In C major, the "la" is an "A", therefore, A minor starts on "la". In hamornic minor, you need to raise the "G", so instead of "so", it's "si".

in italy it's over emphasized.  I have a sort of license in solfeggio.  The final exam is in five different clefs: bass, tenor, mezzosoprano, treble and soprano.  It's very difficult.  As you go along, the  clefs constantly  change..   That is, the c changes pitch.  Maybe this is what everyone is talking about!   But this test is not sung.  It's called solfeggio parlato. Spoken solfeggio.  It's like reading an orchestral score with all the different transposing instruments.  The solfeggio cantato, sung solfeggio, is only done in the treble and bass clefs.  So there's no problem for someone with perfect pitch.  I think finally i get what this whole thread is about.  YEA!!!
The scale in italian is do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-si-do.   There are no changes in the names when there are incidentals.  In solfeggio parlato, you just say the note.  In solfeggio cantato, also, you  just sing the name of the note, but with the correct pitch if there are incidentals.

[ajspiano]

I'll try again 

Birba, where you have been taught that Do is C and Re is D etc.. I (and many others) were not taught this way.

Instead solfa is independent of a fixed pitch, it applies to a diatonic scale tone. It is used to teach the relationships between scale tones on aural basis,  in the same way as in theory we refer to them as their their numbers or names, like in F major, Bb is the sub dominant or the 4th.. if would also be Fa... because fa is the 4th degree of the scale...

this is independent of clefs or any other outside factor that changes how we read or play. "do" is simply NOT always C, it is only C if the key is C. Because thisbis done aurally and sung it results in a development of relative pitch.. where if the musician can identify one tone all others can be identified based on their relationship with the first.

....

I'm actually reasonably familiar with both systems however I never really used them as a student and don't as yet as a teacher. I was also exposed to moveable do first and was initially equally baffled by fixed do as you seem to be now by the moveable system.

I also use a mix between relative and perfect pitch and relative came first so I'm not able to answer the somewhat confusing question presented by m1469.

[birba]

Wow.  Thanks.  This is actually something i'd never heard of before.  Maybe it's a new method?  Sounds reasonable, in a way.   For someone with perfect pitch, though, you'd have to start at an early age.

[timothy42b]

Wow.  Thanks.  This is actually something i'd never heard of before.  Maybe it's a new method?  Sounds reasonable, in a way.   For someone with perfect pitch, though, you'd have to start at an early age.

With predictable tonal music, movable do makes sightsinging very easy for those without perfect pitch.  It anchors one and makes singing more secure than simple intervalic singing does.  With something like a traditional church hymn and movable do, you would go years without an uncertain note.  For music like that, with singers not trained in perfect pitch, it works better than fixed do.

But the further you get from conventional tonal music the less advantage it seems to have, at least to me. 

[oxy60]

Wow.  Thanks.  This is actually something i'd never heard of before.  Maybe it's a new method?  Sounds reasonable, in a way.   For someone with perfect pitch, though, you'd have to start at an early age.

What about perfect pitch? Are you based on a 440 A?

When one is in rehearsals every day the notes and how they are placed during singing are not forgotten. Some people think that is perfect pitch. If you ask any singer to start an aria they have been working on they will hit it almost perfect. In a singing group where I participated, we could start most of our repertoire without pitch pipes.

When I played in an orchestra we would tune our instruments BEFORE the "A" was given as a personal challenge to see if we could hit it right. Seldom were any adjustments required.

Did we have perfect pitch?

[birba]

it's funny.  with age, perfect pitch starts to slide down.  Now, it's maybe 430.

[m1469]

(...) it applies to a diatonic scale tone. It is used to teach the relationships between scale tones on aural basis, (...)

That is my point.  Regardless of whether it's fixed Do or moveable Do, the solfege name still represents relationships between pitches.  Isn't that the point of solfege in general?  Letter names in and of themselves don't do this.  So, if your perfect pitch hears "Re" in fixed Do, doesn't that sound character and recognition automatically include a context?  At times I've suddenly heard it this way, and when I heard D as Re it sounded like itself, but also as a distinct placement in relation to Do, as though I could hear them at the same time within a single idea; there was not one thought that heard Do and then one which figured out Re from there.  I heard a bigger idea in one thought.

[ajspiano]

but wouldn't the context not be to DO but rather to every pitch in the chromatic scale? And why would letters not have the same impact for someone with a well developed perfect pitch? I can see how during learning solfa would be easier to determine both the exact pitches and their relationships. Later however there should be no difference.. assuming the person makes the brain link between sound and letter, rather than just sound and solfeggio.

there should be no real difference if the letters where thought about and used in the same manner as solfeggio is.

....

birba, movable DO solfa was first used on the mid 1800's.. certainly newer than the fixed system, not so new as to be  newer than you

[m1469]

but wouldn't the context not be to DO but rather to every pitch in the chromatic scale?

Sure.  And all the overtones, etc..  The full diapason.

And why would letters not have the same impact for someone with a well developed perfect pitch?

Maybe, but I don't tend to think so.  Solfege is a system where the idea behind it is supposed to represent aural relationships between pitches.  I tend to think of letter names as isolated names for notes almost strictly for the sake of verbal communication, and perhaps mental organization, but not related as much to sound as is solfege.  Ti-Do indicates a particular polartiy, B-C doesn't, unless connected to the second thought to relate it in one way or another to Ti-Do.  I'm sure you could make some form of argument in one way or another about that.  

Either way, my question is not about letter names.  And ultimately, I'm trying to better understand my own perception and organization of sound, especially that as a small child.  It is important for me that I do, and neither letter names nor solfege were my system.  However, solfege is more closely related.

[ajspiano]

Sure.  And all the overtones, etc..  The full diapason.
 

Maybe, but I don't tend to think so.  Solfege is a system where the idea behind it is supposed to represent aural relationships between pitches.  I tend to think of letter names as isolated names for notes almost strictly for the sake of verbal communication, and perhaps mental organization, but not related as much to sound as is solfege.  Ti-Do indicates a particular polartiy, B-C doesn't, unless connected to the second thought to relate it in one way or another to Ti-Do.  I'm sure you could make some form of argument in one way or another about that.   

Either way, my question is not about letter names.  And ultimately, I'm trying to better understand my own perception and organization of sound, especially that as a small child.  It is important for me that I do, and neither letter names nor solfege were my system.  However, solfege is more closely related.

See given that I never learnt solfege as a young student.. but did develop strong pitch/ear skills without it, I do not need to connect to a second thought about solfa to determine what B-C sounds like..  rather, I just look at B-C and have a hard time not imagining the sound directly from that..  Same from notation..  the pitch and relationship between pitches exists without any reference to solfa..  likewise I have a direct association with sound and piano key, without any thought toward letters/numbers/solfa etc.

Also, even though I understand solfa, I would see ti-do and have to relate that to the scale degrees, 7 - 1, then I would know what it sounds like. The solfa is aurally meaningless to me, its just a theoretical concept, and will remain that way unless I make a deliberate effort to make the mental associations.

Hence my position that the syllables, letters whatever is irrelevant.. there is a pitch skill, and you associate sounds to certain words/letters/syllables. Doesn't matter whether its solfa, letters, numbers, piano keys, guitar frets.. or something completely different again.

.........

Perhaps your question isn't really about solfa at all, just about sound organisation and how we relate pitches to one another.

Musically my pitch is relative, but not necessarily key based, rather just what ever note is sounding now I have a relative sense of potential future notes based on that, as opposed to relating to the root of a key always - so a kind of 12 tone chromatic relative pitch. Although I'm sure that is combined with a sense of key, because there is obviously a clear understanding of common diatonic progressions and I tend to like things to resolve to the tonic eventualy

But its also perfect or absolute in that there are obvious artistic differences between tones (or chords or keys - that have similar tonal qualities such as major or minor) that I can identify independently of any other sounds..

Strikes me as some kind of disorganised organisation.

[m1469]

Perhaps your question isn't really about solfa at all, just about sound organisation and how we relate pitches to one another.

Of course it's about sound organization and how we relate pitches to one another.  And, yes, my question was quite specific about solfege and tonal functions/tendencies.

[ajspiano]

Of course it's about sound organization and how we relate pitches to one another.  And, yes, my question was quite specific about solfege and tonal functions/tendencies.

Well, as was stated above not just by me..  fixed do solfa is simply a different name for the note, rather than a letter..  the only reason it matters is because letters can imply other meanings and are not exclusively related to a pitch. This doesn't prevent someone from relating pitch to letters.

..Which is why I suggested that this isn't about solfa.



Even so, using solfa - Though it really makes no difference whether you use solfa or letters.

So, wouldn't you also identify all of the other pitches as they relate to 'Do'?  If you hear 'Re' then you hear it as a step above 'Do', am I right?

That's relative pitch, not perfect pitch..  Unless its a combination, as in you have an undeveloped sense of perfect pitch, and can only recognise "DO" - so in order to recognise "RE" or any other pitch, you first set "DO" in your mind and then use a relative sense of intervals to recognise the other pitch.

The whole concept of perfect pitch is the ability to recognise the pitch without reference or as it relates to another..

The other problem with this is that musically speaking there is limited function to always referencing "Do" - suppose you hear "Fe, Mi, Re" - the work is in A major.. Do isnt even in the scale, and while we need to be able to identify the sound of Do, why make it the reference for something in that key.. For starters, if your pitch is absolute, you don't need a reference, and if it isnt then Do is a poor choice, La makes a lot more sense..  given that our scale is:

la ti da re mi fe sal la - (la is tonic, no 'do' present)

[m1469]

So, back to my original question, for somebody who was raised in a fixed Do system and has perfect pitch, do you hear tonal tendencies within a single pitch as part of its defining character?  I'm thinking that people do, actually, even if they don't recognize it as such.

[ajspiano]

So, back to my original question, for somebody who was raised in a fixed Do system and has perfect pitch, do you hear tonal tendencies within a single pitch as part of its defining character?  I'm thinking that people do, actually, even if they don't recognize it as such.

I still don't see how solfa matters (and since I wasnt raised in that system I'm sure I don't qualify to answer)... but yes, I do hear tonal quality/tendencies etc within a single pitch.. That is how I'm able to identify the pitch from others without reference.

I think I'm starting to get what exactly you're asking..  Such as if I hear G, in isolation, i may be quite likely to want it to lead to C, as in a perfect cadence..  is that what you mean by tonal tendency? I think its a little more abstract though, because I may be just as likely to consider a G the leading note in Ab as I am likely to consider it the mediant in Eb, or dominant in C.. etc. etc.

[j_menz]

Such as if I hear G, in isolation

Out of curiosity, how do you know it's a G if it's in isolation? In an A=440 system, that makes sense, but A isn't always 440, or even close.

[ajspiano]

Out of curiosity, how do you know it's a G if it's in isolation? In an A=440 system, that makes sense, but A isn't always 440, or even close.

Hmm.. well I think that mine is probably 440..  or there abouts..   trouble is that my brand of perfect pitch isn't really perfect so to speak.. such as that I can more easily identify some notes over others in isolation - stronger associations of letters to sounds on those notes I guess.

There's probably a point where the frequency is different enough that I would want to start calling the A either G# or Bb I suppose, because I can identify the different tonal quality, and that's the label I associate with the given quality. Its not a perfect system.... 

I'm not sure what kind of variance we expose ourselves to so far as tuning like that.. most things I use or listen to would be on or very close to A440..   Its a weird thing to figure out I guess, if you have a bunch of different "reds" most people will clearly identify them as red, but as the "examples of colour" get closer to orange there will be variance in a group of people so far as when they start saying orange instead of red..  I don't think pitch is any different... A is not 440. Its ~440.. and there's some overlap before you start calling it something else..?

[birba]

     .  This whole thread is completely beyond my reach.  I don't get it.  I just don't get it.  "Solfa"?  Never heard of the stuff. 1800's?  I've lived a very sheltered life, apparently...

[j_menz]

Hmm.. well I think that mine is probably 440..  or there abouts..   trouble is that my brand of perfect pitch isn't really perfect so to speak.. such as that I can more easily identify some notes over others in isolation - stronger associations of letters to sounds on those notes I guess.

There's probably a point where the frequency is different enough that I would want to start calling the A either G# or Bb I suppose, because I can identify the different tonal quality, and that's the label I associate with the given quality. Its not a perfect system.... 

I'm not sure what kind of variance we expose ourselves to so far as tuning like that.. most things I use or listen to would be on or very close to A440..   Its a weird thing to figure out I guess, if you have a bunch of different "reds" most people will clearly identify them as red, but as the "examples of colour" get closer to orange there will be variance in a group of people so far as when they start saying orange instead of red..  I don't think pitch is any different... A is not 440. Its ~440.. and there's some overlap before you start calling it something else..?

So "perfect pitch" is really approximately perfect pitch?  I don't have it so it's always been a bit of a mystery. Or maybe I just have more "approximately" than is useful.

[j_menz]

    .  This whole thread is completely beyond my reach.  I don't get it.  I just don't get it.  "Solfa"?  Never heard of the stuff. 1800's?  I've lived a very sheltered life, apparently...

Just remove the "l" from "solfa", lay down and have a nap. Quite comfy.  It's what I did.

[ajspiano]

    .  This whole thread is completely beyond my reach.  I don't get it.  I just don't get it.  "Solfa"?  Never heard of the stuff. 1800's?  I've lived a very sheltered life, apparently...

Solfa is just another name for solfege, or solfeggio.. same thing.

So "perfect pitch" is really approximately perfect pitch?  I don't have it so it's always been a bit of a mystery. Or maybe I just have more "approximately" than is useful.

Well, baring in mind that as I said - my perfect pitch isn't perfect..  if you have perfect pitch you define a set pitch with a given name, in the same way as you define a colour..  so A = white for example.. you could have off-white, or cream.. its still white, but you can clearly tell the difference. But I guess it can piss you off if its not perfectly white.. you know, like if you bleach your white socks and they come out with a tinge of grey in them.

..you'd be all like, man I washed them and its close but its just not quite perfect, how annoying..  I'm not so fussy, with my socks of my pitches.. but I can tell the difference without needing to hear/see something in comparison.

EDIT:
But i think in the musical world we don't have a global definition of the exact pitches, though A440 is the most commonly accepted one.. so some people who are exposed to a different base frequenct could see what I think is an off-A as a perfect A.

[birba]

Just remove the "l" from "solfa", lay down and have a nap. Quite comfy.  It's what I did.

i think that's just what i'll do.

I have noticed when i've played with string players (usually the snobby violinists) they hear differences between 440 and 442:

"What is the la on your piano tuned to?", looking at me condescendingly.
"Oh, i don't know.  440?"
"God no. This is 338 at the most."

Orchestras differ.  Maybe that's why.  They say the vienna philharmonic  is tuned to 445 for a "brighter" sound.  Boh! ( italian expression denoting puzzlement and consternation)

These very fine differences have never bothered me.  Just get out your f......violin and let's play, for god's sake!

[ajspiano]

(usually the snobby violinists)

I've run into a few of those condescending types who think that my ears are pretty much useless purely on the basis of my being a pianist.

Happened when I was learning a bit of violin, I asked a teacher why I was having trouble with getting it to pitch correctly.. and she gave me a whole lot of condecending "pianists ears are underdeveloped" BS .. see I thought the fact that I could tell there was something wrong suggests well enough that my ears had the required refinement.. she didnt think so.

..and ofcourse as it turns out the problem was not me, it was the violin.

[birba]

That's it!!!

[j_menz]

I have noticed when i've played with string players (usually the snobby violinists) they hear differences between 440 and 442:

"What is the la on your piano tuned to?", looking at me condescendingly.
"Oh, i don't know.  440?"
"God no. This is 338 at the most."

Is it still snobby when it's correct? 

[birba]

"Condescendingly" refers to the WAY it was asked.  Right or not.

[ajspiano]

Is it still snobby when it's correct? 

If they actually said 338 in place of 438 I'd suggest that that is somewhat of an insulting exaggerated crack at how the piano was tuned..

[birba]

You know,  a violinist might be able to tell the frequncy of one note, but  play him a five-note dissonant chord and ask him to name the notes.  

[j_menz]

You know,  a violinist might be able to tell the frequncy of one note, but  play him a five-note dissonant chord and ask him to name the notes.  

Larry, Curly, Harpo, Zeppo and Ethel.

[birba]

You're just envious...

[ajspiano]

You know,  a violinist might be able to tell the frequncy of one note, but  play him a five-note dissonant chord and ask him to name the notes. 

Ha. Speaking of string players' other significant flaws.. Ask one to play 3 notes simultaneousely..

1 piano, 1 mezzforte, 1 forte.
1 staccato, and 2 sustained.. the staccato one should be the one pitched in the middle of the other two.

[j_menz]

Ha. Speaking of string players' other significant flaws.. Ask one to play 3 notes simultaneousely..

1 piano, 1 mezzforte, 1 forte.
1 staccato, and 2 sustained.. the staccato one should be the one pitched in the middle of the other two.

Sure, right after you play one held note that does a crescendo and opens up into a wide vibrato.

[ajspiano]

Sure, right after you play one held note that does a crescendo and opens up into a wide vibrato.

I own one of these..



 

[j_menz]

I own one of these..

Hmm....