Recommendations for weak forearms help!

[magnificientako]

I do not think my forearms strong enough.I get tired very quickly especially complex double note works.Strengthened with body building or powerball etc. as atletes?
After build muscle then worked on the piano for the independence of the finger? Is this possible?

[johnnybarkshop]

I wonder if you are letting your forearms do too much work.  Don't forget: behind the forearm is the upper arm, shoulder and torso; all these are much stronger.

Try playing some octaves, scale or repeated ones, from the shoulder joint. plus a slight movement forward each time.

[j_menz]

I wonder if you are letting your forearms do too much work.  Don't forget: behind the forearm is the upper arm, shoulder and torso; all these are much stronger.

Try playing some octaves, scale or repeated ones, from the shoulder joint. plus a slight movement forward each time.

And don't forget the wrist and (especially) the fingers, too.

[nyiregyhazi]

I wonder if you are letting your forearms do too much work.  Don't forget: behind the forearm is the upper arm, shoulder and torso; all these are much stronger.

That can be very misleading. Pushing with the upper arm creates work for the forearm, to support the transmission, unless you allow the hand to coast prior to arriving at the keys. It doesn't replace it. Good use of the upper arm in octaves involves a release BEFORE the hand lands, to allow it to coast freely at the wrist. He's quite probably pressing too much with strong muscles at the moment- and forcing weaker muscles to tense up under duress. The first step is to learn to balance well without upper arm pressure, but with clarity of contact between fingers and keys. Without that, any attempt to use stronger muscles in the upper body is destined to work forearms harder, not less.

[iansinclair]

Be very very careful of body building!  For piano, you need speed and agility, but not really strength.  As others have noted, you may be trying to do too much of the work with your forearms.  In fact, overall, you may be working too hard!  It really doesn't take that much strength, even fortissimo (some instruments do -- some tracker organs, never mind carillon! -- but not piano).

Remember, in louder passages particularly, it isn't how hard you hit the key, but how fast.

[sirpazhan]

buy a dynaball,, check amazon.. they range from 6-20 bucks.. it will strengthen everything from forearms to fingers.  

[j_menz]

Be very very careful of body building! 

I agree that gym work isn't going to help, but it won't harm your playing either.

[birba]

This idea of having popeye forearms is ridiculous.  The problem of tired forearms has nothing to do with  muscle weakness.  It's unecessary muscular tension that's causing the fatigue.
Working out is great.  I did it for years.  But it certainly doesn't affect your playing apparatus -good or bad.

[outin]

Working out is great.  I did it for years.  But it certainly doesn't affect your playing apparatus -good or bad.

True if you are already in shape...not true if you do a lot of unergonomic office/computer work and don't work out the kinks...or just generally never work out

[magnificientako]

Extensor muscles fatigue usually occurs.What is the reason? I think the important weight of the piano keyboard.Cause of fatigue, weight of the keys.Each songs can not be played on every piano.

[nyiregyhazi]

Extensor muscles fatigue usually occurs.What is the reason? I think the important weight of the piano keyboard.Cause of fatigue, weight of the keys.Each songs can not be played on every piano.

That makes it clear. Too much arm pressure. Even the heaviest keys do not require huge force. It's when you're straining against the keybed due to arm pressure that you'll be doing the overworking. You need to stop burdening the forearm with arm pressure.

[magnificientako]

Does the weight of the arm would be useful to leave the fingers? Extensor contraction happens when I do this.Flexor muscles need to be strong at this time.

[nyiregyhazi]

Does the weight of the arm would be useful to leave the fingers? Extensor contraction happens when I do this.Flexor muscles need to be strong at this time.

It's neither about resting the whole weight down nor withholding it all. try my most recent blog post in the link in my signature. it's about how to perceive simple balance, in terms of the interaction between subtle weight and finger action that is not burdened by a big arm force.

[magnificientako]

Thank you for your suggestions.Nyiregyhazi examine your blog.

[nyiregyhazi]

Thank you for your suggestions.Nyiregyhazi examine your blog.

let me know if you have any thoughts after. the idea is to experience both full arm weight and a completely disconnected arm, before finding the useful range that exists in between, for yourself.

[thalbergmad]

I should really pay more attention to threads like this.

I have got forearms like Popeye, but they do start to "burn" in quick passages. It is a fault that I have had as long as I can remember.

To Nyiregyhazi's blog I will go.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

I should really pay more attention to threads like this.

I have got forearms like Popeye, but they do start to "burn" in quick passages. It is a fault that I have had as long as I can remember.

To Nyiregyhazi's blog I will go.

Thal

I know that feeling all too well. I can't promise an instant fix, but I'm certain that anyone who takes the time to explore the issues as described will learn to reduce the unnecessary pressures to at least some extent. I can't say I've 100% cured myself, but that slight ache in the forearm is very much an exception rather than a rule, since I've worked on tipping around the balance between how hand and shoulder split the support.

[thalbergmad]

I am convinced that my inability to relax at the piano causes my forearm problem. None of my previous teachers have been able to cure this and of course, it only gets worse when performing during lessons. I got so pissed off with underperforming in lessons that I gave them up, but even in private the forearm burn happens.

I once saw a documentary on Arrau. He likened the piano playing mechanism to an electric circuit board. If there is any stiffness anywhere, the circuit breaks down. No doubt he had a point.

It is strange that I can play the banjo with complete freedom of movement with no tension.

Thal

[nyiregyhazi]

I am convinced that my inability to relax at the piano causes my forearm problem. None of my previous teachers have been able to cure this and of course, it only gets worse when performing during lessons. I got so pissed off with underperforming in lessons that I gave them up, but even in private the forearm burn happens.

I once saw a documentary on Arrau. He likened the piano playing mechanism to an electric circuit board. If there is any stiffness anywhere, the circuit breaks down. No doubt he had a point.

It is strange that I can play the banjo with complete freedom of movement with no tension.

Thal

Quite honestly I don't think that's at all strange. simply replace the concept of relaxation with comfort. comfort is earned, not achieved by intending to release every muscle. too much weight works the forearm and many hand muscles a lot harder. it doesn't seem like much at first, but over a long period of trying to do intricate finger work, the forearm skills and surely seizes up from what had initially been too mild a burden to necessarily even perceive as an any issue .


there's always a balance between the releasing the arm enough  for the hand to be capable of connecting the whole arm to the keys but not releasing so much as to burden the hand. it's easily missed in many different ways. what the likes of Arrau achieved was the product of fine tuning the balance, not actually a product of all round relaxation. Only after you explore what form of balance is actually lowest in effort can such a simplistic intention as "relaxation" actually cause that truly comfortable balance. on the banjo, you can simply intend to relax and that's enough because there's no complexity of having to weighing up different elements in order to find what gives maximum comfort.



recently I actually like the concept of "qi" even though my rational mind says it's nonsense. I particularly like keeping one key depressed and vigorously tapping the next finger against the surface of the keys. There's a mid point where the first finger is securely connected but not forced down, where you can imagine a weird mysterious energy flowing all along the arm. either too much weight or too flimsy a connection between the prior finger and key leaves the arm incapable of generating the true freedom.

[nyiregyhazi]

by the way, my favourite exercise is to stand on the thumb and "wave" with all four fingers. don't press weight into the thumb but lengthen it out fully to connect well. keep waving and try to perceive what level of pressure generates most freedom. it should be very little pressure if your thumb is at full length. there's no easier way to evoke that feeling of freedom all the way from fingertip to shoulder. laziness of the thumb prevents many pianists from achieving the same ease when using the thumb while playing scales and arpeggios etc.