Synesthesia -- Do you have it? Can one develop it?

[gvans]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

Franz Liszt also "saw" colors in music, and was known, as a conductor, to ask orchestral members to play "with a bit more rose, please," or "a little bluer, if you would..."

Other musical synthesthetes include Leonard Bernstein, Itzhak Perlman, and Jean Sibelius.

I'm curious if any PS members might have this quality, and share what it's like with us.

I, for one, try to bring out colors in my music but have red-green deficient eye-sight and see weird shades others don't see. I've been off hallucinogens for decades--not sure that would do it, anyway. I did see some fine colors listening to Jimi Hendrix back in the day, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?

Could one develop it, by opening one's doors of perception? If you could, how valuable might it be to your playing?

 

[j_menz]

I don't have it, but my imagination is generally more aural than visual anyway.

I believe that it's real, though. I suspect it has to do with an early development of connections between the aural and visual areas of the brain, or possibly through a more complex pathway via various emotional/imagining areas.

Not sure how it could be a marketing ploy. No-one seems to want a "cure", and I don't think it can be created.

[dima_76557]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

Franz Liszt also "saw" colors in music, and was known, as a conductor, to ask orchestral members to play "with a bit more rose, please," or "a little bluer, if you would..."

It is worth noting that synesthesia is not necessarily and exclusively a link between colors and sounds: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synesthesia
One might have it in another way but not recognize it as such.

Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?

Is smelling a rat a form of synesthesia? Part of it is probably for real, but I get suspicious when certain online resources want to make a system out of it that works for everybody in the same way. I think that is BS.

Could one develop it, by opening one's doors of perception? If you could, how valuable might it be to your playing?

I think/suspect that with some practice, some elements of it can be conditioned. Since it is yet another form of association of things that don't seem related at first sight, it will certainly help you develop better memory.

[gvans]

Thanks, j_menz, and dima_ogorodnikov, for your replies. The more I read, the more I am convinced it is a real phenomenon, probably genetic, and not easily acquired.

The Wikipedia article is a good one. There are several interesting quotes therein:

"Cytowic & Eagleman find support for the disinhibition idea in the so-called acquired forms of synesthesia that occur in non-synesthetes under certain conditions: Temporal lobe epilepsy, head trauma, stroke, and brain tumors. They also note that it can likewise occur during stages of meditation, deep concentration, sensory deprivation, or with use of psychedelics such as LSD or mescaline, or even, in some cases, marijuana."

Time to meditate in a sensory deprivation tank on Beethoven!

and

"Some artists frequently mentioned as synesthetes did not in fact have the condition. Alexander Scriabin's 1911 Prometheus, for example, is a deliberate contrivance whose color choices are based on the circle of fifths and appear to have been taken from Madame Blavatsky. The musical score has a separate staff marked luce whose "notes" are played on a color organ. Technical reviews appear in period volumes of Scientific American. On the other hand, his older colleague Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov (who was perceived as a fairly conservative composer), was in fact a synesthete."

Creativity and synesthesia (chromethesia is name of the music--color variant) may or may not be closely linked. It certainly doesn't seem to hurt to have it.

The website of the Synesthesia Digital Library is another interesting resource. Here is their take on Franz Liszt:

https://group2.omeka.cair.du.edu/exhibits/show/famous-synesthetes/famous-synesthetes-closer-look/franz-liszt


 

[stiefel]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

My question for Helene Grimaud would be whether she has perfect pitch or not.  For her, Chopin's Barcarolle in F# major would be red-orange.  But what if she heard this piece transposed to B Major- Would it still sound red-orange or would it sound gold?  If it still sounded red-orange, her synesthesia would be linked to mood/emtions, but if it souned gold, it might actually be an expression of perfect pitch.

I don't personally have synesthesia where you associate one key/mode with a certain color, but I do often associate colors with certain pieces.  Two pieces can sound the same color even if they are in different keys/modes.

[gvans]

My question for Helene Grimaud would be whether she has perfect pitch or not.  For her, Chopin's Barcarolle in F# major would be red-orange.  But what if she heard this piece transposed to B Major- Would it still sound red-orange or would it sound gold?  If it still sounded red-orange, her synesthesia would be linked to mood/emotions, but if it sounded gold, it might actually be an expression of perfect pitch.

Hard to speak for the maestress (is that a word?), but I'm pretty sure she has perfect pitch and sees the color in relation to the exact tones. And as to what colors she might see on hearing quarter-tones, glissandos, pianos tuned to A-438, etc, je ne sais pas. Hélène, que voyez-vous?

[lostinidlewonder]

I've got a Synesthesia stick that I can hit you over the head with.

[gvans]

"We can so easily get trapped into a daily routine and follow the same cycles day in and out. It is important to take yourself out of your routine and put yourself into new environments. Taking physical action as well as mental works together wonderfully when dealing with things that require willpower. If you sit in the same place and try to think your way into doing something it is not as effective as actively taking yourself out of your routine and into different situation which will enhance your willpower."

OK, lost, as per your quote above, hit me. I'll warn you, though, I'm color-blind and it won't hurt.

[ade16]

I have had this as long as I can remember, associating specific keys and scales with colour. For me F major is blue for example, A is red, E is white, B is yellow. I've never been able to understand why. I have had conversations with other musicians, most of whom do not understand and think I'm nuts!

[gvans]

Thanks, ade16. I knew someone in PS would have chromesthesia. Does anyone in your family have it? Some think it's genetic. What color is C minor? Do you also have perfect pitch?
Sorry for so many questions, I'm fascinated by it, probably because I'm color deficient.

[lateromantic]

I think this question came up on the "Miscellaneous" board a while back.   As I said there, I do associate keys with colors to at least some degree, and I suspect that it may trace back to childhood associations (such as that A major piece in the book with the bright red cover that I played when I was about 11 ).

As someone else suggested, it would seem that synesthesia presupposes perfect pitch.

Although perfect pitch comes in handy sometimes, I don't see any particular usefulness to synesthesia, so I'm not sure why one would be concerned about trying to "develop" it.

BTW, Scriabin was a synesthete and I love Scriabin.  Probably just a coincidence.

[gvans]

I finally did a search, and there have in fact been several threads over the years on this topic--many apologies for re-introducing it.

Perhaps I should rephrase the question: If you are not a synesthete (and that would be most of us), what might be the best way to bring more "color" to your playing? Call it varied emotion, varied expression, varied story-telling, but delivering a rainbow of color in this area is a good thing, I think.  A pianist can vary dynamics, articulation, and (subtly) tempo, but I wonder if that's enough. Perhaps if you also use your right brain to conjure varied character from key changes, section changes, etc, one might create a more varied palette with your performance.

An example: if you're playing the octave passage in E Major in Chopin's Op. 53--should you just concentrate on hitting the notes, keeping the right hand melody crisp, building a nice crescendo throughout the passage--or should you be creating the hoofbeats of a cavalry charge?

I guess it's the old classical vs. romantic debate, head vs. heart...not sure I'm making sense here, but I'm after something ineffable.

[lucianeldred]

I have had grapheme (color) synesthesia for as long as I can remember as well. Before I became a pianist, in grade school I used to automatically associate subjects with color; Math was red, English was blue, Science was green, etc.

I've conducted some personal research and written observations about my own synesthesic tendecies in relation to music, however delving deep into the subject really gets complex.

For instance, for me G-sharp Major is medium brown yet A-flat Major –its enharmonic equivalent- is more of a carmine red color; from this I can conclude that my perception is largely based off the letters themselves as the letters G and A to me alone represent  brown and red, and the flat automatically invokes a warmer shade of the letter, whereas sharp invokes… well, a sharper shade.

In few cases I have been able to perceive color through sound or sight of a written melodic sequence played at the keyboard. One example of sight can be traced to Haydn’s Keyboard Sonata in D-Major, Hob. XVI: 37. If you look in the bass of the development below the chain of suspensions, measure 48, beat 3 has always from the first moment I played it been perceived in my mind as a bright pink, and beat 4 as a slightly darker shade of pink; this is the only instance in music I have ever seen pink at all and in fact the only instance to which I can claim "sight" synesthesia within my range of abilities. This does cause me to think though that the reason for this happening is a result of other factors, but this is the only logical conclusion I have been able to come to thus far.

Another thing is that, typically a minor key invokes a darker shade of its major counterpart, for example while C-Major is bright yellow, C-minor is generally more of a brown mustardy yellow. The one exception to this is that G-Major for me is light brown however G-minor is dark blue. At first I thought this may be due to the fact that there are flats in the key because the word “flat” itself invokes a shade of blue in my mind, although this wouldn’t make sense because A-flat is still carmine to me, and E-flat is a sort of pastel green. My second guess was the fact that the 3rd in a G minor triad is a B-flat and B-flat minor to me is dark blue, however this also makes no sense because a C-minor triad has an E-flat in it, and yet I still perceive a brown mustardy yellow and not a pastel green. G is the only key in which the major and the minor are two completely different colors to me, though I’m not entirely sure why.

I'll spare any further details, but it's an interesting topic and it definitely affects my feelings towards any given piece of music.

[arietteisclassical]

I see c major as red, B-flat major as golden, f major as green, E flat major as pink, A-flat major as purple. I just do that  for fun. What is the big deal about synesthesia?

[louispodesta]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

Franz Liszt also "saw" colors in music, and was known, as a conductor, to ask orchestral members to play "with a bit more rose, please," or "a little bluer, if you would..."

Other musical synthesthetes include Leonard Bernstein, Itzhak Perlman, and Jean Sibelius.

I'm curious if any PS members might have this quality, and share what it's like with us.

I, for one, try to bring out colors in my music but have red-green deficient eye-sight and see weird shades others don't see. I've been off hallucinogens for decades--not sure that would do it, anyway. I did see some fine colors listening to Jimi Hendrix back in the day, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?

Could one develop it, by opening one's doors of perception? If you could, how valuable might it be to your playing?

 

Hey, any one can have the occasional music conversation, off topic.  BUT!!  I for one, have had my fill of savant/Herculean, extra-sensory discussions regarding famous pianists.

Helene Grimaud has perfect pitch, which has long been associated with seeing specific color combinations when playing.

It, nor any one else who possesses this brain wiring, has nothing to do with playing a piece of music in a beautiful manner.  Who cares?

I care, because:  young students will read this carp and think that it means something, in a musical sense, which it does not!

[chopinlover01]

This definitely is a thing- see below

Robert Starer saw colors with music and based pieces around them.

[louispodesta]

This definitely is a thing- see below

Robert Starer saw colors with music and based pieces around them.

Are there non-sighted pianists who have perfect pitch? Please describe this concept of "color" to them. - Uh, oh!

Once again, it means nothing!  One should please focus on musicality, in my opinion.

[themeandvariation]

Perhaps it can be helpful for some to identify a color with a certain key signature.. (and  {maybe?} the emotive quality  it has on them.  (For Schiff, the C major key signature is white.. )
   AT One Time (before equal temperament) the key signatures actually Had different qualities - (as the intervalic difference between scale notes was not uniform )…  And perhaps C# minor  sounded much sadder then, say, E minor…
   I am guessing that this idea -which was much more hearable then - is something  that still haunts and persists as some 'mystical' idea - some inside knowledge - that some are privy to.. even though That qualitative different between the key signatures has been mathematically erased…  
I am sure we all identify  certain keys with certain emotions, but perhaps that is because of certain pieces that have a made strong impression on us, and we identify an emotion to that key signature… Beethoven - C minor (?)
I would love to play on a piano tuned to such historical tunings… (as opposed  to a harpsichord) to more explore that slight (or more) intervalic differences of the key signature… And hear 'closer' the harmonic world of the composer in question.. (To me, this is a much more interesting aspect than whether the instrument itself is a period instrument.. )
btw … I do have perfect pitch.. And it can be a very useful tool -- especially if one composes -- but personally, I do not associate color with certain key signatures.

[themeandvariation]

i meant to say:  "..qualitative *difference* .."

[pianoplunker]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

Franz Liszt also "saw" colors in music, and was known, as a conductor, to ask orchestral members to play "with a bit more rose, please," or "a little bluer, if you would..."

Other musical synthesthetes include Leonard Bernstein, Itzhak Perlman, and Jean Sibelius.

I'm curious if any PS members might have this quality, and share what it's like with us.

I, for one, try to bring out colors in my music but have red-green deficient eye-sight and see weird shades others don't see. I've been off hallucinogens for decades--not sure that would do it, anyway. I did see some fine colors listening to Jimi Hendrix back in the day, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?

Could one develop it, by opening one's doors of perception? If you could, how valuable might it be to your playing?

 

disn
Yes it is real, I dont know if it is called synesthesia , but Walt Disney made a movie based on music called Fantasia which has many scenes of colorful notes. For me, piano notes are generally yellow to brown while a violin has more of a silver or grey color. Flute is deep red and a Hammond organ is orange, sometimes red. No drugs, not joking

[dogperson]

If I remember correctly from a Barenboim MasterClass on YouTube, he sees landscape scenes when he plays... anyone remember this? 

[alistaircrane4]

I'm surprised that with all this name dropping no one has thought to mention Scriabin who was a huge synesthesite.

[louispodesta]

Hélène Grimaud states she possesses the quality of synesthesia--associating colors with various keys. For her, C minor is black, D minor a kind of blue, B Major gold, F# Major red-orange, etc. (She's also left-handed, like many concert pianists--but that's another thread).

Franz Liszt also "saw" colors in music, and was known, as a conductor, to ask orchestral members to play "with a bit more rose, please," or "a little bluer, if you would..."

Other musical synthesthetes include Leonard Bernstein, Itzhak Perlman, and Jean Sibelius.

I'm curious if any PS members might have this quality, and share what it's like with us.

I, for one, try to bring out colors in my music but have red-green deficient eye-sight and see weird shades others don't see. I've been off hallucinogens for decades--not sure that would do it, anyway. I did see some fine colors listening to Jimi Hendrix back in the day, but I don't think that's the same thing.

Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?

Could one develop it, by opening one's doors of perception? If you could, how valuable might it be to your playing?

 

"Is synesthesia real? Or is it some serotonin-based neuro-chemical chimera? Or is it marketing BS?"

I almost missed this part.  As it turns out, one of the leading neurobiologists in the world, in regards Serotonin, lives directly across the street from me.  I will ask.

However, the world of modern piano pedagogy, as eloquently stated by "dcstudio" (in her Teaching Forum post), which related:  that one of the major reasons she quit teaching is that currently the total emphasis is on winning competitions.

Therefore, please, please focus on the beauty of the music.  Oh, well, I guess I am talking to myself.

You know what? I am not going to let his go, lightly.  And the following predicate was taught to me by my late teacher Robert Weaver:

Every one is taught that you should sing your music, and that you should have a sound sense of rhythm.  What he taught me is that every pianist should develop their own visual sense.

That means that you engage a teacher to teach you how to draw, and then how to paint.  Schnabel, Debussy, and a host of other classical pianists all painted extensively!  It is not a little deal, it is a big deal.

So, instead of pondering what the color a particular key is, one, in my opinion would be more musically productive learning how to paint and develop their visual sense.  Any one out there ever heard of Tony Bennett?  He gets 50K a canvass, and up.

[ted]

No, I do not have it, and don't think I would want to. In fact, I would go even further and say that for me at least, the power of music is its abstraction, allowing the listening mind to attach any meaning it pleases. If I had to think the same thoughts, see the same visions, feel the same emotions, see the same colours or taste the sausages I had for breakfast every time I heard a particular piece, figuration, pitch, rhythm or whatever, then I think music would become pretty dull for me before too long.

It is a subset of the much more general question as to whether extra-musical associations, programmes and so on, enhance the musical experience or detract from it. The answer probably varies greatly among individuals, but I am very wary of even transient association with particular sounds. I claim the right to change my concomitant visions and so on at will without regard for any meaning embraced by the musical population at large. To assign permanent meaning is a personal option, not a universal law.  

[louispodesta]

No, I do not have it, and don't think I would want to. In fact, I would go even further and say that for me at least, the power of music is its abstraction, allowing the listening mind to attach any meaning it pleases. If I had to think the same thoughts, see the same visions, feel the same emotions, see the same colours or taste the sausages I had for breakfast every time I heard a particular piece, figuration, pitch, rhythm or whatever, then I think music would become pretty dull for me before too long.

It is a subset of the much more general question as to whether extra-musical associations, programmes and so on, enhance the musical experience or detract from it. The answer probably varies greatly among individuals, but I am very wary of even transient association with particular sounds. I claim the right to change my concomitant visions and so on at will without regard for any meaning embraced by the musical population at large. To assign permanent meaning is a personal option, not a universal law.  

Perfectamente, utilizing the Spanish word to describe what "ted" just posted.  Perfectamente!

[outin]

Synesthesia is of course a real and studied phenomena and can be simplified as "the mixing of senses" in the brain. It is in no way restricted to music or colours, there are countless of different types of synesthesia. Musical synesthesia happens when one's auditory sense is mixed with another. In addition to seeing colours, it's possible to "taste" music. In some form I think most people have sometimes experienced the phenomena, but probably thought nothing about it.

[roncesvalles]

I wouldn't describe myself as a synesthete, but I do associate music with color.  I don't associate entire tonalities with a given color, because there is too much possibility for ambiguity (C major can sound like a minor, F major/d minor, G major/e minor at a given time/progression).  I associate colors with specific harmonies with specific notes--transposing it wouldn't be the same color, for example.   But most of these "color harmonies" for me are highly complex, not major/minor/dim/aug/seventh, to which my color associations are minimal and subdued.  Different voicing of the chord will give me a slightly different experience of color.    For example, in the treble clef, Bb C# E F A (6th A maj chord with a superimposed Bb F fifth--it also works with a low G softly played concurrently three Gs down from the Bb, for some reason), gives me a dim greyish purple, a little brighter and more reddish purple if the A is voiced more prominently or if the entire chord itself (but not the bass tone) is louder.   

Years ago, inspired by Sorabji's 'tropical nocturnes' (Sorabji is the composer I most associate with color, followed by Scriabin, some Szymanowski and Roslavets), I wanted to write a suite of pieces based on my favorite rare flowers, particularly Aroids.   The organizing factor was primarily a sense of color to harmonies.   On the most successful there was a sort of interchange of a dark magenta (root on b) and a frosty sort of green.  It was something of a maddening experience, however, trying to get the colors right and to keep a sense of the colors without keeping the piece static (it amounted to contrapuntal manipulation of a sonority, with choice augmentations), something I don't want to go through again, especially since most of my compositions are microtonal now, which would just compound the difficulty.  When I improvise I am often awash in colors, although it is often their changing that is more interesting than their native, respective colors.  Every now and then I do come across a colorful chord that I jot down for future use, because it is so striking.

[gvans]

My son (a neuroscience major) found this odd video on the Internet recently, one that applies to this conversation in an oblique manner. The subject of this five-minute movie has achromatopsia--total lack of color vision--and had a cyborg-like implant attached to his brain that mics him a tone for every color.

Fascinating. Worth watching, IMO, so "hear" it is:

https://www.thisiscolossal.com/2015/08/sound-of-color/