Imrpovisation in classical music

[toby1]

How does one practice for this?

Apparently Beethoven used to imrpovise his cadenzas and it was common practice for older music. But more recently performers tend to play written ones.

Does anyone imrpovise in a classical style? How do you approach it?

[iansinclair]

I don't.  I'm nowhere near good enough.  A good cadenza will summarize, brilliantly, the preceding movement of the work (sometimes the entire work, which is much harder) with regard to themes, key changes and modulations, and mood, and will end -- triumphantly -- on the home key.  In a nutshell.

A really brilliant virtuoso -- say a Horowitz or Rubinstein or, on a different instrument, a Heifetz, might dare to improvise a cadenza on a very good night.  It is much more likely that he or she will essentially compose a cadenza during practice for the work; he or she may or may not write it down, but will work it so it is satisfying and then practice it -- just as he or she would practice the rest of the work -- so that it is consistent and flawless.

And then, likely as not, someone else will write it down!

[j_menz]

And then, likely as not, someone else will write it down!

For which effort the rest of us can be grateful.

@ toby1 - I believe one would practice by doing lots of improv work in a similar style.

[tdawe]

Would be fairly simple if you understood all the theory. Once you understand that, you can work within the framework that the piece provides. Of course, whilst it would be easy to get stuff that sounds 'right' ie. consonant, making it musically worth/doing the composer or rest of the piece justice would be another matter entirely.

Improvising a cadenza would be simple. Most often this serves the purpose of an extended and important cadence - hence the feeling of closure that an earlier poster mentioned. In the classical period this would most likely be a perfect authentic cadence, V - I or V - i. Find out what key you want and move from the dominant to the tonic. You could add in ornaments in the style of the rest of the piece. I hope people don't take offense at my simplistic approach to this - obviously a truly great improvisation would require a very indepth understanding of the piece in question and an extremely talented and diligent performer, just trying to get the OP moving in the right direction.

[kalirren]

I've recently started doing this with a Handel Chaconne.  Ornamentation only, not structural improvisation.

The first step for me was to learn to play things that weren't written on the page.  Sometimes I plan this out and practice it while looking at the score, trying to form the subconscious association between what I see on the page and the multiple fingering patterns that arise from different possible ornamentations.

My second step was to play them the same way twice -if and only if- I so chose. 

Sometimes I listen to recordings of people who improvise, and I listen to them exactly once.

Then I go to the piano and attempt to play what they played.

Then I go to the piano again and try to play different ornamentation, but in the same style.

I've found that in doing these things, I'm already starting to think of melodies in terms of the structure that pins them down instead of how they happen to be written.

I'm sure it's a huge series of steps from ornamentation to the improvisation of an entire structural unit like a cadenza, but you have to start somewhere...

[awesom_o]

You need lessons with a master. But first, you need to already be in possession of an advanced pianistic technique AND have advanced knowledge of music theory.

 

[ajspiano]

You need lessons with a master. But first, you need to already be in possession of an advanced pianistic technique AND have advanced knowledge of music theory.

 

I'm not sure you need "Advanced" theory.. you could get started with a working knowledge of I IV and V chords as well as the facility to play some fairly averagely executed scales and alberti type lines..

Pack some Czerny scores..  because while his etudes are devoid of much real musical interest they clearly show you how to put patterns through chord changes and modulations.. Bring along clementi, kuhlau and then mozart sonatas as a follow on to spark some more genuine creativity.

A teacher certainly is required though for anything but snail paced progress in the beginning, practicing from a score to facilitate improv is a fairly different approach to practicing to facility a specific execution.

[ajspiano]

As an addition, check out the attached file (which I havent yet read) which talks about improvisation in the baroque style and the skills that were taught/used to facilitate this..

[ted]

Good grief, ajspiano, I hardly understood a word of that file. Thank goodness I have no desire to imitate baroque. I wonder if Derek understands it.

[ajspiano]

Good grief, ajspiano, I hardly understood a word of that file. Thank goodness I have no desire to imitate baroque. I wonder if Derek understands it.

Based on my skimming through its a little convoluted..

..but I believe it basically says a lot of what derek has figured out by himself..  something like ground/fix a line, harmonize it with a basic "baroque sounding" texture (lots of 3rds/6ths)..  then ornament the hell out of everything both in terms of pitch and rhythm..  and by ornamentation I don't just mean turns and mordants etc..   more like whole motifs around a species counterpoint kind of structure with variations layered on top of that..   then it provides a mountain of examples of such conventions in baroque literature.

The context of that file is a bit away from a useful reference though i think, because its a little too concerned with "what pedagogical tools were applied in the baroque period" rather than explaining how to actually do/think about it in a way that is useful now as an imitative tool.

^all a really speculative opinion ofcourse, I haven't read it properly.

Anyway, based on everything I've ever seen from you ted, I feel that if you wanted to imitate baroque you'd probably just do it by ear without any specific guides.. and that it wouldn't be an imitation, so much as just your own choice of sound on that particular occasion.

[ted]

...if you wanted to imitate baroque you'd probably just do it by ear without any specific guides.. and that it wouldn't be an imitation, so much as just your own choice of sound on that particular occasion.

Yes, that's certainly the only way I could do it all right. Faux baroque, you might say; a general baroque effect without the mental arithmetic of historical or musical correctness. Especially in the matter of rhythm, I'd have a hell of a job not breaking out of that clockwork sound. Full credit to Callahan for going into it to that depth though; it must have taken an enormous amount of research.

[awesom_o]

AJS,

I didn't mean to imply that one requires mastery to be begin studying it-I think lessons with a qualified musician would likely be enough to begin for most.

What I meant to say was that the quality of one's work as a classical improviser will reflect ALL of their musical skills.
-knowledge of counterpoint, harmony,
-complete fluency with 'rudiments' (scales, chords, arpeggios, in ALL keys with total mastery)
-individual sense of creativity, narrative, story-telling, and overall musical expression.

[ajspiano]

AJS,

I didn't mean to imply that one requires mastery to be begin studying it

I was sure you knew that, your post was a little brief though..  It had the potential to come of a little bit like "don't bother unless you're already a highly trained pianist"..  which is hardly fair, since there's reasonable argument that composition and improvisation can and should be taught along side all the other skills from day one.

Extension of the skills you mention such as counterpoint, harmony, full knowledge of scales etc are like part of the study to extend your vocabulary, but you don't need an experienced scholars vocabulary to say something with meaning.

[awesom_o]

Carl Czerny went into considerable detail on the subject in this fantastic little book:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Letters_to_a_Young_Lady_on_the_Art_of_Playing_the_Pianoforte_(Czerny,_Carl)

Keep in mind Czerny was Beethoven's greatest pupil and Liszt's greatest teacher.

Beethoven, Czerny, and Liszt were probably the ultimate Classical Improvisation Troika.

Czerny called it extemporaneous performance.
Do yourselves a favour if you haven't already and read it!

[toby1]

Aha, so Czerny could be useful?



Everything in it's place. I was messing with his studies for the left hand because I felt like I just plain had too much of a difference in the control and co-ordination I have in my right hand work compared to my left hand. So decided to blitz it.

According to a blog post on this site somewhere it used to be common to play Czerny etudes as part of auditions for university degrees, but now more serious or technically challenging music is the order of the day.

I don't think I've ever seen a public performance of Czerny's work. But yes, back on topic I'll have to ask my teacher about it and see if she's ever done anything like that. She's been teaching for 30 years and even if she can't imrpovise in classical style I admire her playing for being way more nuanced and sensitively controlled than mine. Something to aspire to and hope to surpass. The idea of classical style improvisation is fascinating too since I'd always heard of classical music referred to by non-players as boring clockwork play-it-to-the-letter type stuff.

[awesom_o]

Czerny was Beethoven's greatest pupil. He was also Liszt's greatest teacher. He was one of the greatest pianists to ever live. He could play ALL of Beethoven's compositions for piano by memory without exception. It is thanks to Czerny that we have Scarlatti in the repertoire today. He composed a cycle of piano sonatas, a cycle of piano nocturnes (long before Chopin began exploring the form), a cycle of symphonies, as well as etudes for students of all abilities, from the complete beginner to the highest level of cultivation.

If your teacher has been teaching for 30 years and still cannot improvise, I would suggest moving on, regardless of how nuanced you may think her playing is.

I would encourage you, as well as the many others out there who undoubtedly share this poorly-educated opinion of Czerny, to have a bit more respect for one of history's greatest musical minds.

I realize I digress, but please. Listen to this string quartet, and tell me that Czerny does not deserve our most serious consideration as a great musical figure!

[toby1]

@Awesom_o

First 30 seconds tells me I like it, is lively and fun and interesting. Thanks for the link. Regarding the drop the teacher comment I'd ask the general community here: Have you ever asked your teacher if they can improvise a fugue or minuet or generally western classical style sounding piece? And would you drop them if they can't?

Improvisation is the cornerstone of jazz music but it seems to be less a requirement of classical playing. I've never been asked to improvise in a classical context but I'm only a beginner. Something to look forward to I guess

[awesom_o]

I don't take lessons any more, I teach lessons.
The last professor I had formal studies with was very accomplished in improvisation. He and I both studied improvisation separately with the same master-teacher.

I'm not sure you quite understand how classical improvisation works.
A fugue and a minuet are both a type of finished composition.

The purpose of an improvisation is not to be a finished composition.
It can be to provide the improviser with musical ideas which later can be developed more thoroughly into finished compositions.

It can also be done to entertain an audience, although certain famous improvisers (Beethoven) were liable to get very angry indeed if asked to entertain dinner guests by flexing their creative powers in such a manner...

Read what Czerny says about improvised playing. I think it will bring you greater insight into what classical improvisation is.

It's incredibly different from jazz improvisation.

[ajspiano]

improvising a fugue is a totally different animal to improvising a minuet..  thats like comparing a kitten to a tiger.

[awesom_o]

Chopin was the greatest improviser of his day. He would sometimes improvise for hours. Those who heard said it was an otherworldly experience of indescribable beauty. His finished compositions were pale shadows compared to what he played in the moment.

He didn't improvise fugues or minuets. His favourite thing was to improvise music for the puppet shows he and his girlfriend loved to stage together.