Triplets against eighth notes (3 against 2)....help!

[magic_sonata]

I have been assigned Arabesque No. 1 by Debussy, and have come across a lot of measures where there is triplets (RH) against eighth notes (LH). I have *almost* accomplished it, but at a slow speed and the tendency to 'stutter' and slip the rhythm one way or another. Does anyone have any tips for:

-achieving a faster speed when playing 3 against 2, after slow practice
-tapping the rhythm, and tricks to 'keep it' in your head (the sound of the rhythm, etc.)
-incorporate a wide range of dynamics with 3 against 2 (I tend to be concentrating too much on getting the rhythm right, and my dynamics only include slightly crescendos and decrescendos, not much else)
-staying with the metronome, and recommended 'times' to practice with

You don't have to list everything in the list above, but offer any information that you have.

A very big thanks to all,

magic_sonata 

[landru]

You might think you will never get this - but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can become almost second nature.

Getting the rhythm outside of the piece was crucial to me. Debussy's Arabesque was one of my first 3 on 2 as well. What worked for me was tapping my left hand on my left knee for the two and my right hand on my right knee for the three (and/or the other way around). Start out with just one hand and then add the other by first just doing it on the first beat - so one hand plays three while the other hand plays one. Then once you get that down, make the other hand go twice as fast - the second beat coming just after the second beat of the triplet hand.

For faster speed - the usual rules apply. Get your single hand fingerings down and play the separate hands at speed.

Also do a search over this site - this question has been asked a lot!

[magic_sonata]

You might think you will never get this - but you'll be surprised at how quickly it can become almost second nature.

Getting the rhythm outside of the piece was crucial to me. Debussy's Arabesque was one of my first 3 on 2 as well. What worked for me was tapping my left hand on my left knee for the two and my right hand on my right knee for the three (and/or the other way around). Start out with just one hand and then add the other by first just doing it on the first beat - so one hand plays three while the other hand plays one. Then once you get that down, make the other hand go twice as fast - the second beat coming just after the second beat of the triplet hand.

For faster speed - the usual rules apply. Get your single hand fingerings down and play the separate hands at speed.

Also do a search over this site - this question has been asked a lot!

Thank you so much! I have mastered it now. Again, thank you! 

[gore234]

I use the Phrase " not hard to get" to count 3 against 2 lol. Tap your right hand when you  say the words not and to, and tap your left hand when you say the words not, hard, get.

[j_menz]

I use the Phrase " not hard to get" to count 3 against 2 lol.

A word of caution on that. It doesn't work for English/Australian and some other pronunciations. In the US "not" is a long syllable, in other places it is short and so doesn't reflect the proper timing.

[louispodesta]

Here is a trick that one of my teachers learned from Eugene Liszt.  It works for any and all poly-rhythms, as well as most difficult black key passages.

First, you transpose the rhythm to C major.  In the case of the Arabesque, you play from C to F in the right hand, and you play from C to E in the left hand.

You start at the same time in both hands, and you focus on ending together.  It doesn't matter if you play fast or slow as long as you start and end together.

Then, you continue to play the right hand in C major, but you now play the left hand as it is in the score, e.g. measure #39.  Then, you do the reverse by playing the left hand in C major, and the right hand as it is in the score.

Finally, you put the two together as they appear in the score.

The same technique holds true earlier in measures #19-21, when you are playing two against three with two in the right hand.

There is also the old "1 ta li 2" method with the second note of the duplet being "li" and "1 ta" being the first two notes of the triplet.  I find this to be better suited to Brahm's Intermezzi where he uses it a lot in order to create a special harmonic rhythmic tension, which is not the case in the Debussy.

[j_menz]

Here is a trick that one of my teachers learned from Eugene Liszt.  

List, not Liszt. I hope you were better at learning the technique than the spelling.

I can't see any advantage whatsoever in the transposition, though you can certainly get the feel for the timing issues by playing the polyryhthm on with any notes that are comfortable over two or more sets of triplets.

I also don't understand what "ending together" means in the context of 2v3.

[nyiregyhazi]

Here is a trick that one of my teachers learned from Eugene Liszt.  It works for any and all poly-rhythms, as well as most difficult black key passages.

First, you transpose the rhythm to C major.  In the case of the Arabesque, you play from C to F in the right hand, and you play from C to E in the left hand.

You start at the same time in both hands, and you focus on ending together.  It doesn't matter if you play fast or slow as long as you start and end together.

Then, you continue to play the right hand in C major, but you now play the left hand as it is in the score, e.g. measure #39.  Then, you do the reverse by playing the left hand in C major, and the right hand as it is in the score.

Finally, you put the two together as they appear in the score.

The same technique holds true earlier in measures #19-21, when you are playing two against three with two in the right hand.

There is also the old "1 ta li 2" method with the second note of the duplet being "li" and "1 ta" being the first two notes of the triplet.  I find this to be better suited to Brahm's Intermezzi where he uses it a lot in order to create a special harmonic rhythmic tension, which is not the case in the Debussy.

I can follow the idea of working on a rhythm in an isolated context that is simpler than the original, before returning to it. well, except for the fact that if you can't already play 2 against 3 in C major with complete fluency, there's no reason why reducing black keys would help (and if you could already do it in C major, this would be more an issue of how to cope with a few black keys than one of dealing with cross rhythms). however, I'm truly mystified as to how a burst of bitonality might possibly help. can you clarify specifically what this bizarre step is supposed to achieve? I'm all for seeming weirdness, if there's a feasible logic behind it (no matter how elusive that logic might initially appear). however, I'm totally lost on how to make sense of this step.


PS starting and ending together is simply not good enough. as a teacher, the error I've seen over and over is for the three to be executed as a semi quaver to quaver to semi quaver rhythm. The three must be felt as a continuous flow to the next meeting point. it's not adequate to start and end together and hope that the rest will work by itself.