While we're at it... 3 against 4

[rjarvis]

So right now I'm working on a Mozart sonata (I think it's K.330, but I'm not really sure...).  Anyway, there's a little part in it where the right hand is playing thirty-second notes and the left hand is playing triplets-with-two-bars (whatever they're called--it doesn't really matter for the sake of the question).  For the life of me, even though I can play 3 against 2 with no problems, I absolutely cannot figure out how to actually play the 3 against 4.  (I know how it's supposed to work, with 12 as the least common multiple and everything, but I can't translate that into playing.)  I'm on break right now from lessons for the summer, so I can't really get any help from my piano teacher.  Before we started break I hadn't worked on this piece for very long, so she just told me to speed that section up and keep working on it, but then we never got back to it, and I'm still having issues with it.

Basically, how am I supposed to count/feel the rhythm as I'm actually playing it?  It's driving me crazy, so any help would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks

[chopin2015]

https://audio.tutsplus.com/articles/general/introduction-to-polyrhythms/

[brogers70]

For some reason, I also had trouble with 3 vs 4, even though I could get 2 vs 3, and even 3 vs 5, by dividing up the beat into 6 or 15 pieces and learning to tap it out. For 3 against 4 I just figured out which order the notes came in (ie the down beat together, then the second sixteenth, then the second triplet, then the third sixteenth, then the third triplet, then the fourth sixteenth). I didn't pay attention to the different time intervals between the notes, I just made sure I hit them in the right order. So at first it was kind of ragged. Then once I got up to speed, I started to feel the two hands separately and the rhythm sort of snapped into focus, and the triplets were really triplets and the sixteenths sixteenths.

You could also try just going for it. Practice the hands separately until you can play both quite fast, and then try putting them together without thinking about it too much. That's also worked for me sometimes.

[rjarvis]

Thanks for the audio examples in the link .  I've written out grids like the ones in the link, but I feel like I can't possibly divide the beat into twelve as I'm playing it.

I didn't pay attention to the different time intervals between the notes, I just made sure I hit them in the right order. So at first it was kind of ragged.

Right now I'm doing this pretty much exactly, so I guess I'll just bear with the awkward rhythm until I get the piece up to speed.

Thanks

[j_menz]

The first and third of the four fall in the same place as a 2v3 polyrhythm. Use them to keep yourself honest and the other two just fall evenly between.

[flat]

Hi,

I'm not sure if you have had luck since posting.  I just wanted to let you know that I have been having the same problem with Debussy's The Snow is Dancing.  I found this youtube video that helped me to understand 3 against 4 almost immediately:

I can now clap it with my hands whenever I want but I still haven't applied it to the piece yet.  We will see how that goes, but this may be useful for you!

[pianoman53]

It all depends on what the problem is... Is it that you can't imagine how it should sound, or that you know how it should sound, but can't technically make it? Like, if you doesn't know how it should sound, technical exercises won't help. So first make sure you know how it should be. The next step can be to play random notes (like parts of a scale) so you don't have to think of the note. Then to play it on the correct tempo. Then the correct notes in a slow tempo and then in the correct tempo.