Rachmaninovs 2nd piano concerto, 1rst movement

[fnork]

Okay, I kind of posted this in another thread already, but I would really like some tips for what I can improve when practicing this piece. I have uploaded my version (without second piano though) here, together with Chopins 3rd ballad:

www.angelfire.com/music6/pianostuff17

If anyone could give me suggestions for what to improve, please tell me. My piano teacher told me that the arpeggios should be played better - that it sounds like one kind of arpeggio in the left hand, and another kind of arpeggio in the right hand.
I have a lot of trouble with the "Alla marchia" part and the whole part with big chords leading up to it... I've practiced it slowly, but it still feels very uncomfertable in tempo, and I press the wrong key way too many times...
Also, the chords in the very end (where right hand plays in thirds and left hand eight-notes) are difficult to get right in tempo.


So, if anyone else has played this piece, please give me some help for how to play it better And if you can, you could give me some advice on Chopins ballade too

[allchopin]

I'll try to keep it short, as I have a lot of suggestions for changes in the Ballade.
1) In slow sections, it sounds somewhat metronomic - add more rubato and possibly slow it all down a tad (slow sections only).
2) Voicing.  Both hands are not always equal with Chopin.  For instance, listen to ~6:05 and ~6:18.  There is dissonance happening in the RH that you probably don't want to bring out - the left hand should take over here.  I noticed voicing issues throughout the slow sections.
3) Fast sections should be a tad faster - felt apprehensive.  Though this may just be because you have just learned this and are still working through smoothness (or that's what it sounds like).
4) Accuracy seems fairly in check throughout, but I would work the coda to death.  Don't want the listener remembering the ending wrong notes!
Overall, not too shabby...

[fnork]

ooops, sorry! Link fixed..

[DarkWind]

Well, for one, around measures 52, that whole large section lasting up until around measure 115, it has quite a few errors, on top of being played extremely dully and somewhat tired sounding. It should have a much more springing, happy, lively feel to it. It sounds rather, just, too steady. It should jump, I hope you understand. Other than that, it was pretty good.

[Spatula]

yeah not too shabby.... wow now I know what mine will sound like sans orchestra

sorry but I just can't help myself but giggle when I hear the page flip...sounds rather cute in a way (no offense at all man, you do good stuff)!

[liszmaninopin]

Truthfully, I like it.

My main suggestions would be along the lines of:

polish the notes!  In general you hit them with good accuracy, but some passages were slightly sloppy sounding.

Also, in the lyrical section following the alla marche-I might suggest a slightly faster tempo.  In addition to that, while I can hear the melody, I think that it could be "sung" and "connected a bit more.

Finally, the passages of sixteenth notes near the end seemed a tad sluggish to me.

Really, though, I think you've done a fine job.

[fnork]

Thanks for your advices!  They help me a lot, especially since I won't have the chance to meet my teacher for a while

[fnork]

I also uploaded a recording of Bachs preludium & fugue in c-minor, WTC 1. There's some noise in the beginning, sorry about that. And well, the recording isn't the best perhaps, I'm not that happy with it. Too many wrong notes in the fugue...

[Spatula]

Hearing it again, I really like how you hit the deep bass notes in the beginning as well as the first few pages.  Yeah try to keep it legato and as you play the big chords, move your arms outward like a butterfly (i'm refering to fink's book) because this actually makes the deep and solid sound you want to produce.  Sorry I'm at work right now and I don't have the score with me obviously...but I'll try to be more specific in my next post.

Good job.

[fnork]

Hearing it again, I really like how you hit the deep bass notes in the beginning as well as the first few pages.  Yeah try to keep it legato and as you play the big chords, move your arms outward like a butterfly (i'm refering to fink's book) because this actually makes the deep and solid sound you want to produce.  Sorry I'm at work right now and I don't have the score with me obviously...but I'll try to be more specific in my next post.

Good job.

Thank you for the tips. The big chords you're speaking of - are you talking about the arpeggios in the beginning, after the introductionary f-minor chords, where the piano accompanies the orchestra?
Yeah, I would like you to explain the butterfly thing a bit better. Don't think I understood it right

[Spatula]

I need the score with me (now I'm at college...wait till I get home) to identify which page that I'm talking about.

I'm using the KALMUS edition (looks rather new and has a Warner Bros. logo on it).

The whole arm movement being "butterfly" like isn't too hard to do, just kinda hard to explain.  Try to keep your wrists relatively still for the chords that are a quarter note or longer, and for the chords that demand a BIG deep rich sound.  What you want to do is to move your elbows upward in a big "O" fashion but don't exaggerate, only move them up as required. 

When you bring them up, your back bone will naturally move towards the piano and once the arm level is a parallel to the keys, the arms will natually move the arm sockets and therefore your back to a properly sitted up position.

I'm pretty sure the Fink book talks about this but I'm still waiting for it through the courier service. 

[jlh]

You've got a good start on these pieces.  Just a few friendly notes:

I would do the cresc in the first few bars a little more gradually -- the second chord kind of sticks out.

In the opening few pages, I could use more dynamic range.  Also, make sure the D major measure of bar 42 is LOUD.  Don't just blow past it -- it's a high point, but come way down in volume in the next few bars, but then look out, because there's huge cresc going into 46.  Overall, more dynamic contrast...

The section starting on 63 is overall too loud.  That section should be played as leggiero and soft as possible.  Then again, it could be the piano you're using, I dunno...

I like the swell you do on the solo section on the next page meas 83-84, but the melody line is most important here, and I'm hearing a bit more concentration on the accompaniment than is necessary.  Same goes for  the next page when the melody is octaved.  The melody needs to sing, so you might want to practice the solo sections of this movement (melody only -- no accomp) and try to get a good singing tone, then play it the same way when you add the other parts.

In measures 133 till the end of the page, less LH and voice the quarter notes in the RH more.

141, start even softer, the forte doesn't happen until 145.  Again, it could just be the piano.

A bit softer starting at 153, then at 159 - 160 don't use any pedal and bring out the G-F-Eb-D-C in the LH.

193 till end of section, bring out quarter notes a bit more and watch that the accents on every RH set of octaves.   Really accent the first octave, but not the following ones.

I know what you mean about the Alla marcia section.  That's not an easy section to play.  Just be patient with it.

139 till end of section is a lot slower than you were playing the previous section.  It's marked Un poco meno mosso, but it should be a little less motion from what you were playing earlier, not from the previous 2 measures.  It just needs to flow a bit more.  This is also not an easy spot.

I lose the beat on measures 355 and 359.  You do a good crescendo there, but put a bit more of an accent on the note that the LH plays when it crosses over, to solidify the beat.

One more thing, I'd start the accel. a bit earlier than you do on the last page.

There has been a lot of hype in Hollywood about Rach's 3rd concerto being so difficult in recent years, but if you ask me (I played this concerto 2 years ago), his 2nd concerto is every bit as difficult in spots.  You're doing an excellent job on it so far, so keep it up!

[fnork]

Thanks a lot for the tips, jih! Have you played it with orchestra?
Since you have played the whole thing yourself, do you have any special practice advices? If you have any such advices, please tell me

I can't put the blame for some mistakes at the piano, although it is very hard to play softly on it. There's a risk that if you press it down too softly it won't resonate at all, or much less than you wanted to. It's hard to explain, but anyway I can make some sections more quiet on other pianos, like 63, although I still need to practice on it.

About the alla marchia part, and the whole part that leads up to it... How do you think it should be practiced? I mean, it must have worked for you somehow I always tend to hit the wrong notes on  some chords, even after practicing it slowly....

Yeah, I heard that Rachmaninov himself thought that the second one was more difficult because it was so uncomfertable to play... The third is also difficult, but at least it feels good for your fingers, while the second one usually doesn't

[xRhapsodyx]

I'm listening to it now, it's great.. where did you get the music from? I have the music arranged for two pianos but this sounds like you're just playing on your own.

How old are you, and how long have you been playing?

[fnork]

I'm listening to it now, it's great.. where did you get the music from? I have the music arranged for two pianos but this sounds like you're just playing on your own.

How old are you, and how long have you been playing?

Thanks I have the two-piano arrangement of it too, but on one recording I didn't have my piano teacher playing the second piano. In other words, what I did was to play the solo piano parts, and when the solo piano had a pause and only the orchestra played, I had to almost sight-read the orchestra parts. Or, well, I've played bits of it before, but never practiced on it.
But actually I think that the version I uploaded is the concert version (is there any applause in the end? if so, it's from a concert) where my piano teacher accompanied me. He had a terrible upright piano though, and had to hit the notes as hard as possible to be heard over my Yamaha grand

I'm 17 now, 18 in two months. I can't say that I've played really really seriously for more than 3 years when I started upper secondary school. Here, I got the chance to play with my school orchestra as soloist, and I've been improving my playing mostly thanks to going here - I have a great piano teacher who is really kind and helpful, and we usually get a lot done. But I actually started playing piano when I was 10-11 years old, but I really didn't bother to practice much - as I do now.


I'll probably post more recordings by the beginning of Februar, because some classmates and I have a major concert in one of the smaller halls here in Gothenburgs concert hall - I'll perform with a trio, and possibly alone and with another pianist too, we'll see.