hands too small or not? (warning, long story!)

[minifingers]

Ok, so here's the story, I took up piano lessons for the first time 5 months ago at the age of 27. I have always wanted to play since my elder sister had lessons at the age of 9 but I never did, firstly because my sister very cruelly told me my hands were too small so i never asked my parents, who never thought to ask me.

Secondly later on, I believed pianos were too expensive so put it out of my head till at 26 I discovered the existence of digital pianos. The one obstacle remaining was my hand size. Unfortunately my sisters words, so clearly remembered turned out to have too much of a ring of truth to them. Even as a fully grown adult that I have unusually small hands, I have yet to meet any adult who doesn't have hands bigger than mine so I know it isn't just case of my finger span increasing over time, I am already fairly dextrous and I believe I am beginning to reach close to the full extension I could ever hope for. I can just about place my fingers fully stretched on the white piano keys (they only reach the middle of each key), if I depress them my fingers press the adjacent keys.

Now very much worried about this I deliberated and researched and decided that I would give it a go, it may be harder for me than most but I really want to play the piano so much that I wanted to give it a go no matter how much more difficult it may be for me in the long run. So I set of for my lesson and was relieved to find out that my piano teacher had unusually small hands for a man which to my surprise only surpassed mine in in span by a matter of about a cm, possibly two. he reassured me that I could play the piano so I was happy.

Fast forward to 5 months in and i just get to the stage when I am about to begin playing songs with an octave (as yet only in sequence not at the same time) and an unfortunate event happens. My teacher who has worked hard to instill confidence in me and succeeded moves. Now the place I go to teaches several instruments and has several teachers so it is arranged that I am to have lessons with a new teacher.

Unfortunately she happens to be very new, at least to the place I go to. She has been there 2 weeks and is excessively nervous. I don't know if she has ever taught adults before (she has taught in schools for a couple of years). Well the lesson didn't go very well at all in my opinion but by far the most upsetting event in my eyes occurred with relation to my hands. I told her about my little hands, showed her, she looked extremely puzzled, tried to figure it out with 'well I suppose it would be a bit like me trying to do this (her very long fingers go on to stretch 10 notes or similar) then puzzled some more. At this point I was starting to feel like I wanted to cry. So after all this i'm left wondering if my hands really are too small and if they are what on earth do I do about it? I won't quit playing and I want a teacher so any help on what to do would be appreciated.

[iancollett6]

I really dont think you have to worry about this. If you are in doubt, get on you tube and check out the plethora of sub-10 year asian kids smashing out Chopin Etudes!. I would say that there hands are quite small.
 Its about the technique. Also my teacher told me that people with smaller hands are able to move them quicker, so possibly you may have an advantage.

[hfmadopter]

If you can not span a full octave you just learn to break the octave. We all have to do it at some point, I should break a 10th for instance. Also depending on how the hand is built, your specific hands in this case, sometimes the fingers 1 and 4 actually span an octave more comfortably than 1 and 5 do. That actually is the case with my own hand. After years and years of playing octaves with 1 and 5 I am relearning now to use 1 and 4.

Your teacher is there to help you overcome obstacles in learning to play piano, what ever those might be. If you feel your current teacher isn't doing that then start demanding changes from the administration at the school. That's one nice feature about going to a music school vs private lessons. On the flip side if you have private lessons and like your teacher she isn't getting switched out on you. Non the less, I suggest you keep with this new teacher for a short while and see if she settles down. If not then demand a change of teachers.

You will learn ways around playing with small hands, believe it ! Just losing that stigma you are saddled with is the hard part. Every single one of us who plays any kind of instrument has a short coming to deal with, might be a small hand , might be fat fingers ( we had a guy come in here trying to tell us he couldn't play piano because one hand was larger than the other, pure bunk). Maybe rhythm trouble for instance, reading problems. You name it someone has it but continue learning non the less.

Accept your hands for what they are and learn to play the piano. My little old lady piano teacher so long ago had arthritic ally distorted small hands and could play Bach as if the notes were coming straight from heaven. Not only were her hands small but her fingers all twisted from the arthritis.

[minifingers]

thanks, I never thought of trying to play with the 1st and 4th fingers, i'll have to give it a go and see how it feels.

I've only had one lesson with my new teacher so I am going to give her more of a chance, i'm just worried she's going to put me off learning as I was so glad when my lesson was over! We went through a piece I was in the middle of learning and put me off immensely by circling the notes every time I paused to think, even briefly (for the second half of the piece it was my first run through and i'd told her before beginning the piece) or telling me what the note was before I had time to figure it out. I ended up with way too many circles and felt like I hadn't learnt anything!

[louispodesta]

You are not the first person to visit this forum with this situation.  Notice, I did not say problem because you, personally, do not have a problem.

First, most of Chopin's students were female aristocracy, and most of them were no taller than five feet and had tiny hands.

Second, one of the greatest pianists of all time, Anton Rubinstein, had small hands, as well as his most famous student, Josef Hoffman.

Third, Sergei Rachmaninoff, according to the late Earl Wild (a personal friend) had a span of a fourteenth, yet he played most of his octaves in a broken fashion.

Finally, my initial post on this website spoke to the fact that pianists in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries regularly rolled/arpeggiated their chords.  Enclosed is my video link illustrating this.

Like I said, you, personally, do not have a problem.  However, your new teacher, who barely knows how to teach someone how to pump gas, does.

Get a new teacher, and explain the information in my video, which by the way is based on voluminous historical performance practice research.  Then, forge ahead and learn the great music associated with this great instrument.

Good luck to you.

[dima_76557]

Second, one of the greatest pianists of all time, Anton Rubinstein, had small hands, as well as his most famous student, Josef Hoffman.

I am quite surprised to read this here. All sources I have encountered, including Josef Hoffman himself, describe Anton Rubinstein's hands as "huge".

[louispodesta]

Show and tell!  Scroll down and look for yourself.  They were actually smaller than mine are.

https://handfacts.wordpress.com/tag/chopin/

[nyiregyhazi]

Show and tell!  Scroll down and look for yourself.  They were actually smaller than mine are.

https://handfacts.wordpress.com/tag/chopin/

Given your track record of inventing things and then asserting them as fact, I'll presume you're at it again. nobody can see their size from a photo that is not contextualised with any scale. however, it's well know that rubinstein could not fit his fingers easily between black keys, because they were so vast. if one takes that as an approximate basis for scale, that certainly doesn't appear to be a small hand.


Edit- and Hofman stated that his fifth finger was as thick as hofman's thumb. you should really do proper research before asserting such tripe.

[nyiregyhazi]

You are not the first person to visit this forum with this situation.  Notice, I did not say problem because you, personally, do not have a problem.

First, most of Chopin's students were female aristocracy, and most of them were no taller than five feet and had tiny hands.

Second, one of the greatest pianists of all time, Anton Rubinstein, had small hands, as well as his most famous student, Josef Hoffman.

Third, Sergei Rachmaninoff, according to the late Earl Wild (a personal friend) had a span of a fourteenth, yet he played most of his octaves in a broken fashion.

Finally, my initial post on this website spoke to the fact that pianists in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries regularly rolled/arpeggiated their chords.  Enclosed is my video link illustrating this.

Like I said, you, personally, do not have a problem.  However, your new teacher, who barely knows how to teach someone how to pump gas, does.

Get a new teacher, and explain the information in my video, which by the way is based on voluminous historical performance practice research.  Then, forge ahead and learn the great music associated with this great instrument.

Good luck to you.

While your positivity is admirable, it is not beneficial to be pretending that your fixation with rolled chords will prevent inability to reach an octave from being an issue. Hofman had a very easy octave within his span and appears capable of tenths on his special piano (equivalent to a 9th on a regular one). there is a good deal of music where you simply cannot fake octaves by separation. there's a difference between the ultra subtle rolls of Rachmaninoff (who would almost unfailingly have had both fingers poised on their notes when breaking any octaves) and having to play one note and then move across to find the other. there's a huge amount of music where this will never work. you can't play the octaves of the tchaikovsky concerto like they are the split octaves found in Beethoven. it's together or nothing. there's no question that Rachmaninoff might have done "most" of those anything other than together.



however, the genuinely good news (that doesn't hinge upon creative misuse of information outside of relevant context) is that it's extremely rare for an adult hand to be truly incapable of an octave. it's usually a matter of how the hand is being held. in particular, the thumb needs to be able to go straight out to the side. many people make the mistake of starting with the thumb pointing forwards - which makes a hand seem tiny. it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the poster could find an octave in just a single lesson, given the right advice. even if not, the hand can drastically improve in flexibility over time. my most recent blog post ends with a few paragraphs that illustrate the objective fact that most standard hand actions actively make your hand close up. it shows how one specific quality of action, however, makes the hand expand. over time, the right quality of action will almost certainly result in ability to reach the octave. it's exceedingly rare for any adult not to be capable of getting there. far better that the poster realises that there is likely a path, than that she gives up on the whole thing, based on a staggeringly distorted misrepresentation of reality (that you've shoe-horned into a totally inappropriate context).

[minifingers]

Well I watched the link, I had read somewhere about rolling chords but I didn't really know how to do them so i'll definitely give them a go and get myself practicing some broken chords. I do see nyiregyhazi's point, I imagine it's not always going to work, particularly as a beginner as yet to achieve such fine control and speed I have seen displayed on youtube and suchlike.

I'm not sure my hand does have much stretch left, I have noticed an increase in reach of certain fingers in particular my index and middle but not much in overall stretch. I would be intrigued if you could give me some pointers as how to improve my hand positioning for such stretches. I have (hopefully) enclosed a picture so you can judge for yourselves and possibly give a few pointers or just marvel at how small my hands actually are for a fully grown adult!

[nyiregyhazi]

Well I watched the link, I had read somewhere about rolling chords but I didn't really know how to do them so i'll definitely give them a go and get myself practicing some broken chords. I do see nyiregyhazi's point, I imagine it's not always going to work, particularly as a beginner as yet to achieve such fine control and speed I have seen displayed on youtube and suchlike.

I'm not sure my hand does have much stretch left, I have noticed an increase in reach of certain fingers in particular my index and middle but not much in overall stretch. I would be intrigued if you could give me some pointers as how to improve my hand positioning for such stretches. I have (hopefully) enclosed a picture so you can judge for yourselves and possibly give a few pointers or just marvel at how small my hands actually are for a fully grown adult!

You'll likely have no problem developing from what I see there. First thing is to get get the thumb totally out out sideways and only just on the key at all. Once you're there, practise reaching out forwards with the fingers, so the adjacent key pushes the thumb open. Be gentle but gradually coax the space between 1 and 2.


Most people find more more flexibility the very first time they do this. To play an an octave, aim for a thumb that goes out to the side in exactly the same way way and keep it back at the edge of keys. Although my reach is an 11th your octave should become far more more comfortable than my 11th. Spread chords will be useful to learn, but it's out of the question that you can do it for all octaves. Start opening your thumb and you'll be fine.

[dima_76557]

You'll likely have no problem developing from what I see there. First thing is to get get the thumb totally out out sideways and only just on the key at all. Once you're there, practise reaching out forwards with the fingers, so the adjacent key pushes the thumb open. Be gentle but gradually coax the space between 1 and 2.

To N.'s excellent remarks I'd like to add that with your hand size, it is best not to play so deep in the keys, at least for the time being. Touch the keys more near the edges (closer to your body, away from the instrument) with your fingertips. This will give you additional space in your hand.

[minifingers]

You'll likely have no problem developing from what I see there. First thing is to get get the thumb totally out out sideways and only just on the key at all. Once you're there, practise reaching out forwards with the fingers, so the adjacent key pushes the thumb open. Be gentle but gradually coax the space between 1 and 2.


Most people find more more flexibility the very first time they do this. To play an an octave, aim for a thumb that goes out to the side in exactly the same way way and keep it back at the edge of keys. Although my reach is an 11th your octave should become far more more comfortable than my 11th. Spread chords will be useful to learn, but it's out of the question that you can do it for all octaves. Start opening your thumb and you'll be fine.

It never occurred to me to try moving my other fingers as well! I did notice a slight increase in span when I tried just now and I can see how it could increase with more practice. Thank you very much for explaining this to me, I really do appreciate it.


thanks for the advice dima_76557i'll be careful, very early on I discovered the pain of poor practice when I was positioning myself far too close to the piano at home. I didn't realise what I'd done until I'd finished practicing and it took about 2 months before my wrist stopped hurting. I wouldn't want to do anything like that again!