Advice for stronger fingers / Hand exercises

[danielespinosa]

Hi, I have big hands, and I think that is good for a pianist (reach long chords, etc.)

But because of that, I have long, thin, weak fingers (4 & 5 specially)

I do the Hanon method but my fingers arent strong at all. What can I do to improve my fingers and make them "stronger"?

I am planning to do this 2 "hands exercises" when im not on the piano:





 but is this bad for a pianist? what else can i do, at or not at the piano?

[dima_76557]

I am planning to do this 2 "hands exercises" when im not on the piano

That kind of exercises does not train what you need for piano playing. You need exercises that OPEN your hand, not the vigorous ones you have chosen to close the hand. Besides, your hand itself is probably not strong enough yet to overcome that kind of resistance, so you will be compensating with muscles in the arm. Stop doing that because you will get further and further away from a good technique.

I have some descriptions of GOOD exercises by my teacher but they are in Russian. I'll translate them and get back to you as soon as possible.

P.S.: While you do need a certain strength in the hand to play the piano (very much so in virtuoso literature), the main problem is to prevent collapse in all the finger joints under all circumstances. This takes specialized training. Also, you need to 1) find the right path into the key and 2) realize how light a piano key really is to prevent overuse of physical energy. You could start doing that right now. "Weigh" the keys with a movement of the finger from the palm knuckle that brings the key down without causing sound. You will be surprised how "strong" your fingers will feel when you have done that for a couple of minutes and start playing a piece you already know without thinking about the physical part of it.

[marik1]

May I suggest, piano playing has nothing to do with the strength of the fingers. Moreover, the notion of "joint collapse" is a myth to avoid by all means. Forget all the books and advises , the only way to acquire good and efficient technique is finding a good (and usually, expensive) teacher, who would supervise you at very least once a week for at least an hour. Best, M

[hardy_practice]

Marik's right - those joints are designed to hold your body weight.  It's about coordination.  Attain whatever strength you require through the keyboard. 

[dima_76557]

Marik's right - those joints are designed to hold your body weight.  It's about coordination.  Attain whatever strength you require through the keyboard.

Marik1, who is a fantastic pianist himself, may be right in most cases where people have a more or less "healthy" mechanism to start with, but I'd like to give a case in point about myself.

I used to have this kind of collapsing pinkies in both hands:

6 years of very intensive piano training did NOTHING to cure it, and this particular problem hampered my technical development considerably (fourth fingers trying to compensate, middle fingers trying to compensate for the fourth that was trying to do the pinky's job, etc.). Just try to play anything in the advanced literature with such pinkies without hurting yourself; won't happen. I had to turn to a special trainer/coach, who gave me special exercises AWAY FROM THE PIANO. For example:

The point was to lock the "knee" joint but keep the nail joint relaxed (checking the latter by gently knocking against it with the index finger of my other hand. This and other exercises, which I am not allowed to post here, helped me to fix the problem within 1 month.

[hardy_practice]

That looks nasty!  but again it's a coordination issue not a strength one.  Exercises away from the keyboard, as you point out, are the thing.  Although in your case dima I would have tried caressing the keys first - did you try that? 

[dima_76557]

That looks nasty!  but again it's a coordination issue not a strength one.  Exercises away from the keyboard, as you point out, are the thing.  Although in your case dima I would have tried caressing the keys first - did you try that?  

I was desperate, so I tried EVERYTHING I could think of (including the carrezando approach) but to not avail. Any chord, octave, run, etc. where a fifth finger was required made the structure collapse in a way you can see in the picture. Although the neurological "wiring" from the brain to all my fingers was OK, this problem remained and could not be solved by simply thinking about musical ideas and artistic sound images, etc. No amount of Hanon and other torture exercises on the piano helped me. The "knees" of those pinkies (problably the joints that get the most of the workload in piano playing) were simply "dead" and had to be brought to life again.
P.S.: Even coordination issues require the right movements to be trained, which is very much a muscle thing. The stronger the muscle (wherever it is located), the more control you have over it. 40-60 grams doesn't seem like much, but for my pinkies it was too much of a burden.

[outin]

Marik1, who is a fantastic pianist himself, may be right in most cases where people have a more or less "healthy" mechanism to start with, but I'd like to give a case in point about myself.

I used to have this kind of collapsing pinkies in both hands:

6 years of very intensive piano training did NOTHING to cure it, and this particular problem hampered my technical development considerably (fourth fingers trying to compensate, middle fingers trying to compensate for the fourth that was trying to do the pinky's job, etc.). Just try to play anything in the advanced literature with such pinkies without hurting yourself; won't happen. I had to turn to a special trainer/coach, who gave me special exercises AWAY FROM THE PIANO. For example:

The point was to lock the "knee" joint but keep the nail joint relaxed (checking the latter by gently knocking against it with the index finger of my other hand. This and other exercises, which I am not allowed to post here, helped me to fix the problem within 1 month.

Thanks for this ecouraging post...I have had a bit of a similar issue as long as I remember and not just the 5th but also the 4th. It has effectively caused me not to use those fingers at all in everyday life so practically the other half of my hand has been useless. Only after I managed to figure out how to exercise on that away from the piano I feel I can actually use the fingers normally on the piano. They are still a bit unreliable, but seeing the fast results with a little bit of exercise I believe I might actually be able to overcome this.

[hardy_practice]

P.S.: Even coordination issues require the right movements to be trained, which is very much a muscle thing. The stronger the muscle (wherever it is located), the more control you have over it. 40-60 grams doesn't seem like much, but for my pinkies it was too much of a burden.

FWIW, I just lifted a 300 gram potato (with an elastic band round it) without any difficulty.  In fact it was quite revealing about how the joints act  (their functions seem a little different).

[nyiregyhazi]

Marik1, who is a fantastic pianist himself, may be right in most cases where people have a more or less "healthy" mechanism to start with, but I'd like to give a case in point about myself.

I used to have this kind of collapsing pinkies in both hands:

6 years of very intensive piano training did NOTHING to cure it, and this particular problem hampered my technical development considerably (fourth fingers trying to compensate, middle fingers trying to compensate for the fourth that was trying to do the pinky's job, etc.). Just try to play anything in the advanced literature with such pinkies without hurting yourself; won't happen. I had to turn to a special trainer/coach, who gave me special exercises AWAY FROM THE PIANO. For example:

The point was to lock the "knee" joint but keep the nail joint relaxed (checking the latter by gently knocking against it with the index finger of my other hand. This and other exercises, which I am not allowed to post here, helped me to fix the problem within 1 month.

[nyiregyhazi]

Marik1, who is a fantastic pianist himself, may be right in most cases where people have a more or less "healthy" mechanism to start with, but I'd like to give a case in point about myself.

I used to have this kind of collapsing pinkies in both hands:

6 years of very intensive piano training did NOTHING to cure it, and this particular problem hampered my technical development considerably (fourth fingers trying to compensate, middle fingers trying to compensate for the fourth that was trying to do the pinky's job, etc.). Just try to play anything in the advanced literature with such pinkies without hurting yourself; won't happen. I had to turn to a special trainer/coach, who gave me special exercises AWAY FROM THE PIANO. For example:

The point was to lock the "knee" joint but keep the nail joint relaxed (checking the latter by gently knocking against it with the index finger of my other hand. This and other exercises, which I am not allowed to post here, helped me to fix the problem within 1 month.

When it comes to collapsing fingertips, there's an easy solution based on starting with the fingertip curled up on the nail and slowly lengthening out forwards. The full details are in my last blog post.  I've yet to see a hand too weak to do this (although, incidentally, the carrezando is quite impossible for some joints to use with success). It would interesting to apply the same processes to this problem and see if a better position evolves via lengthening, or if it's a whole different solution.

[dima_76557]

When it comes to collapsing fingertips, there's an easy solution based on starting with the fingertip curled up on the nail and slowly lengthening out forwards. The full details are in my last blog post.  I've yet to see a hand too weak to do this (although, incidentally, the carrezando is quite impossible for some joints to use with success). It would interesting to apply the same processes to this problem and see if a better position evolves via lengthening, or if it's a whole different solution.

Part of the training (already at the instrument) also involved priming the fingertips well against the key from a low wrist position and jumping up like on a trampoline with high wrists at the end of the movement. This involves very much the "lengthening" movement you talk about in your articles.

I also had to do light hand staccato exercises from the wrists at the piano where I had to use the "knees" of the fingers as shock absorbers without deliberately locking any finger joints. Although no strength is required, I remember I felt rather helpless in the beginning with that one too, especially with the 4th and 5th fingers.

[jj5594]

Afraid to say that the best way of improving hand strength is through rigorous and regular exercises (scales, arpeggios, example ( https://www.hanon-online.com ), 1_2_3_5_4_3_2_5_3_2_3_4_1_3_5_4_,  ...). Apart from that there isn't much else you can do. Also consider trying out pieces where the fingering involves 4th and 5th fingering (mozart or something). (PS: Important that your hand has the right shape)

[thalbergmad]

In 6 pages time, we will have reached the usual impasse.

Thal

[gvans]

Fascinating thread. A pleasure to read supportive comments, most without sarcasm or rancor.

Dima, I feel for you. Good luck fixing your pinky problem--it sounds like you're on the right track. The fifth finger is an odd one, for example, my right pinky wants to extend and hover over the keys when I'm not using it, but my left one never does that. It doesn't bother anything, but how odd that it seems to have a mind of its own.

Andrew, your blog link is interesting. You mentioned Richter in there, how he never had physical finger problems. In a bio I read about him recently, he did state he had concerns creating good piano/pianissimo, and at the beginning of his career, at least, he had issues with harsh fortes.

Also a big guy with big hands, I have similar issues--no strength or physical issues, but hard to coax great pp out of the keys. Unlike Dima, my fingers make perfect curved hammers--perhaps I need to try some carrezando, though, whether in flexion or extension (as suggested in Andrew's blog), I'm not sure.

For those of you, who like me, were unfamiliar with the term carrezando, here's a site with a good definition:

https://www.legacyweb.rcm.ac.uk/cache/fl0026842.pdf

Glenn

[nyiregyhazi]

Fascinating thread. A pleasure to read supportive comments, most without sarcasm or rancor.

Dima, I feel for you. Good luck fixing your pinky problem--it sounds like you're on the right track. The fifth finger is an odd one, for example, my right pinky wants to extend and hover over the keys when I'm not using it, but my left one never does that. It doesn't bother anything, but how odd that it seems to have a mind of its own.

Andrew, your blog link is interesting. You mentioned Richter in there, how he never had physical finger problems. In a bio I read about him recently, he did state he had concerns creating good piano/pianissimo, and at the beginning of his career, at least, he had issues with harsh fortes.

Also a big guy with big hands, I have similar issues--no strength or physical issues, but hard to coax great pp out of the keys. Unlike Dima, my fingers make perfect curved hammers--perhaps I need to try some carrezando, though, whether in flexion or extension (as suggested in Andrew's blog), I'm not sure.

I should clarify, I didn't mean to say Richter's technique was literally flawless, but rather than I've never encountered any evidence that he had went through so much as a brief spell of tendinitis or any of the ill effects that are simplistically related by many methods to any use of notably "curved" fingers.

Regarding quiet playing, I've found the lengthening action extremely helpful in terms of my abilities. There's a way of doing it exceedingly deliberately but slowly. Prep against the key, so you're almost expanding out enough to move it already and then continue to lengthen the finger slowly but powerfully. I often show my students against their arm. If done right, there's a remarkably clear and long pressure- but it's not a huge pressure. The arm doesn't press, so it's simply a long clear feeling of slow pressure, rather than a feeling of extreme force. When you remove all sense of subtraction or repression and instead replace it with a long but slow sense of willful movement, any danger of accidentally failing to sound the key virtually disappears. It becomes possible to play extremely quietly without any sense of holding anything back.  It's just a case of moving more gradually, rather than trying to pull back from the movement- just like how any good golfer always putts through the ball without trying to subtract anything. It's like a slow consistent application of what feels like an exceedingly powerful action (that melds seamlessly into a position of balance)- rather than a repressed prod that vanishes in a split second. Even at the keybed there's the sense that you carry on pressing the knuckle up and away. If you make freedom at the knuckle end, you don't have to introduce the chaotic nature of a sudden stop in the movement. Instead of piling extra movement into compression, you allow it push the knuckle back away into freedom. That way, there's no need to suddenly stop or "relax".
 
On the carezzando, I think it can be very useful but my fear is that the article gives virtually none of the context that is required in order to do it safely. If you grip against nothing in particular, it's inevitable that it will merely cause exertion. If you make room for yourself  and have the sensitivity to stop gripping when it serves no purpose and switch to balance by lengthening, it can promote freedom. However, my biggest fear is someone brought up on armweight principles trying to employ that without lightening up and making room for the knuckle. It could be truly disastrous.

[hardy_practice]

https://www.legacyweb.rcm.ac.uk/cache/fl0026842.pdf

I presented a paper at the same conference!  Her anatomy was a bit bizarre, but the ideas OK.

[dima_76557]

Dima, I feel for you. Good luck fixing your pinky problem--it sounds like you're on the right track.

I wrote my posts in PAST tense. The problem was solved successfully more than a year ago.

[maitea]

However,  my biggest fear is someone brought up on armweight principles trying to employ that without lightening up and making room for the knuckle. It could be truly disastrous.

N, in 2 sentences, you´ve summed up about 4 years of pianistic agony. Fortunately I came out the other end of the tunnel

[maitea]

Oh and Dima, you mentioned earlier you have some excercises from your teacher in Russian, and would eventually translate into English.. Please do! I´d very much look forward to that!

[marik1]

Marik1, who is a fantastic pianist himself, may be right in most cases where people have a more or less "healthy" mechanism to start with, but I'd like to give a case in point about myself.

I used to have this kind of collapsing pinkies in both hands:

6 years of very intensive piano training did NOTHING to cure it, and this particular problem hampered my technical development considerably (fourth fingers trying to compensate, middle fingers trying to compensate for the fourth that was trying to do the pinky's job, etc.). Just try to play anything in the advanced literature with such pinkies without hurting yourself; won't happen. I had to turn to a special trainer/coach, who gave me special exercises AWAY FROM THE PIANO. For example:

The point was to lock the "knee" joint but keep the nail joint relaxed (checking the latter by gently knocking against it with the index finger of my other hand. This and other exercises, which I am not allowed to post here, helped me to fix the problem within 1 month.

I saw some quite phenomenal pianists, who had every single finger collapsing like that... and still they were quite virtuoso...

Very often the problem is in one's head, or might be completely unrelated. After all, it is not about strength of the fingers, but focus, touch, and sensitivity. The collapsed joints have nothing to do with that. In such cases it is impossible to give any suggestion without seeing the "problem" in person.

As a side note, there is a famous Rachmaninov's hands picture, where he deliberately "collapses" his knuckles.

Best, M

[nyiregyhazi]

I saw some quite phenomenal pianists, who had every single finger collapsing like that... and still they were quite virtuoso...

Very often the problem is in one's head, or might be completely unrelated. After all, it is not about strength of the fingers, but focus, touch, and sensitivity. The collapsed joints have nothing to do with that. In such cases it is impossible to give any suggestion without seeing the "problem" in person.

As a side note, there is a famous Rachmaninov's hands picture, where he deliberately "collapses" his knuckles.

Best, M

There are cases where collapse doesn't matter, but I have to say that the picture you paint above (as if it ought to be no concern whatsoever, in any context) can be truly destructive. I was as good as in a straitjacket until I dealt with drooped knuckles. I still have plenty of work to do it at opening my hand out properly and stopping the inert droop. To do this day there's a tightness in the 5th finger side of my right wrist, that comes from compensating for droop in that knuckle.


Who are the virtuosos you mention and do have a ability to play with a "big" sound without a percussive thud (as is displayed today by so few pianists aside from Volodos)? Presumably you can show us plenty on youtube? types of collapse can make that next to impossible, as it often wastes energy in transmission (as surely as a hinged golf club that is freed to double back upon reaching the ball). I forget the specific technique, but recently I recall the girl who played prokofiev 2 in the Cliburn having a rather measly sound. Rewatching Nyiregyhazi in Japan last night revealed more power in mezzo fortes than in her very loudest. you can't terrify like Nyiregyhazi if half of your sound is being lost to drooping (which also means more energy goes into impacting upon joints). Very few of today's competition players have a truly vast sound and a lot of that is down allowing little droops. When collapse occurs unpredictably, it's exactly what kills the sensitivity and the ability to accurately predict the exact volume of sound that you will produce- be it a loud or quiet one. it's very difficult to collapse the exact same way twice, so you never know exactly how much of your potential sound will be lost to it (especially when adapting to different responses from pianos of different sensitivity). There are few things that have improved more than my ability to voice quiet chords as I intend, since working at these issues.