Famous/known British composers?

[ranniks]

I have noted down Edward Elgar.

But who else? Someone on the level of fame as Mozart or Beethoven or even Bach.

On wikipedia it says George Frideric Handel was British but born in Germany. Is that true?

[tdawe]

Ralph Vaughan Williams, Benjamin Britten and Gustav Holst are probably the most famous.

A few others spring to mind off the top of my head. Thomas Tallis, Michael Tippett, Samuel Coleridge-Taylor, John Ireland and yes as you said, Handel.

[ted]

Frank Bridge.

[j_menz]

Purcell, Delius, Templeton, Quilter, Sorabji and our own Mr Hinton.

None quite in the fame league of Bach, Mozart or Beethoven, but then who is, really?

On Handel, he was originally from Hanover, where he worked in the court of the Elector. To expend his horizons, he upped stumps, largely without permission, and decamped to England where he established a successful career. Some time late, on the death of Queen Anne, his former employer became George I of England. Awkward.  Fortunately, George was a forgiving kind and Handel was soon back in royal favour, even writing the music for the coronation.

[thalbergmad]

Sterndale Bennett at his best is comparable to Mendelssohn and vastly superior to the Schumann virus. C V Stanford wrote 3 stonkingly good piano concertos and Bowen wrote 4.

G F Pinto was referred to as the English Mozart. Some of his works are indeed devine and perhaps if more Potter was recorded, he might compare favourably to some of our European cousins.

The contribution by British composers in the classical/romantic era was not vast, but they appear to have made up for that in the 20th century albeit there were a lot of plinkers.

Sorabji thought it absurd that he was considered British. I think it is absurd that he is considered a composer.

Thal

[ahinton]

Sterndale Bennett at his best is comparable to Mendelssohn and vastly superior to the Schumann virus.

I've never contracted that; is it treatable?

C V Stanford wrote 3 stonkingly good piano concertos

Mon Dieu!

and Bowen wrote 4.

Ah, now you're talking! Bowen's work is enjoying a renaissance these days - well, a naissance, anyway - and it's been quite a worthwhile voyage of discovery. Sorabji was a great admirer of his work, as you may know (he's the dedicatee of Bowen's 24 Preludes for piano).

G F Pinto was referred to as the English Mozart. Some of his works are indeed devine and perhaps if more Potter was recorded, he might compare favourably to some of our European cousins.

Medtner was often referred to as the Russian Brahms and his near-contemporary and compatriot Roslavets as the Russian Schönberg. Closer to our shores, Erik Chisholm was nicknamed "MacBartók". None of that makes it right, of course. Pinto was interesting enough (Ronald Smith used to play some of his piano music) but to describe him as "the English Mozart" says more that's derisory about the term "English" than it does about anything else.

The contribution by British composers in the classical/romantic era was not vast, but they appear to have made up for that in the 20th century

That's largely true.

albeit there were a lot of plinkers.

Whatever they may be - victims of the Schumann virus, perhaps?...

Sorabji thought it absurd that he was considered British. I think it is absurd that he is considered a composer.

In so saying, you have identified an example of why the final three letters of your forum ID are so appropriate.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

butg to edescribe

Are you learning Danish???

Thal

[ahinton]

Are you learning Danish???

Yes; I'm having lessons with Sandi Toksvig. Actually no - but do you think that perhaps I should, particularly when a course in typing might turn out to be more useful?

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

A course in composition might be even more useful.

Thal

[ahinton]

A course in composition might be even more useful.

With / from whom? Which living composer do you have in mind? And with how much of my work are you sufficiently familiar to lead you to conclude thus in any case? Actually, though, for the record, I go through a composition course during the course of each composition...

Best,

Alistair

[ranniks]

Thank you all!

[the_fervid_pig]

Satie is of English/Scottish descent, and Chopin stayed in Scotland for a bit, will that do?
How about Roger Quilter?

[thalbergmad]

Ah, now you're talking! Bowen's work is enjoying a renaissance these days

Well, I was actually typing.

Walford Davies is enjoying a mini renaissance as well. No doubt you heard the Symphony No.2 Broadcast on Radio 3.

A shame Sorabji is not around to enjoy this romantic feast

I have read he respected his works.

Thal

[ahinton]

Well, I was actually typing.

I do know that, of course; the phenomenon of euphemism is presumably known to you?

Walford Davies is enjoying a mini renaissance as well. No doubt you heard the Symphony No.2 Broadcast on Radio 3.

I didn't actually, but what I know of his work gives me little cause to celebrate this fact, if indeed that's what it actually is (though I'd be happy to be proved wrong, naturally).

A shame Sorabji is not around to enjoy this romantic feast

I have read he respected his works.

I'd like to know where you read that; the extent of Sorabji's "respect" for Walford Davies is pretty much summed up (as I assume you know) early in his (Sorabji's) book Mi Contra Fa: The Immoralisings of a Machiavellian Musician (1947); I do not doubt, however, that Sorabji would have found something else to interest him within this series.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

(Sorabji's) book Mi Contra Fa: The Immoralisings of a Machiavellian Musician (1947)

Read it a few times now. It sits next to "Mein Kampf" on my bookshelf as both include some rather strange opinions.

Thal

[ahinton]

Read it a few times now. It sits next to "Mein Kampf" on my bookshelf as both include some rather strange opinions.

Where it sits in your library is of course of far less importance than the number of times that you feel disposed to read it.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I have to skip the "Stanford" bits. Too insane.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

The master at work.

Thal

[g_s_223]

Not to forget:

And:

[ahinton]

The master at work.

Yes, the master probably was at work when his servant Stanford wrote thus; competent, workmanlike, not even especially unattractive in places but, I cannot help feeling, ultimately of little real consequence. You may not (want to) know this, but when I asked a pianist of my acquaintance (who for obvious reason shall remain nameless) why he had named his son Stanford, he replied that it was because he didn't want him to become a musician. It's good that the works of the likes of Stanford and Parry are being reassessed today through new performances and recordings, but the principal reason for that is so that we can better acquire a proper and more comprehensive perspective of what went on in British music during their time.

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Not to forget:

Well, you can keep those; you're welcome to them! All competent stuff of its kind, but little more than that, I fear!

And:

Ah, now we're getting somewhere! The second symphony's well worth getting to know as well.

Best,

Alistair

[jy_]

ketelbey?

[j_menz]

Hmm... forgot a few who actually might qualify:

Lennon & McCartney

Andrew Lloyd Weber

Gilbert & Sullivan

[j_menz]

One composer probably not well enough known is William Baines, who died tragically young but nevertheless left over 150 works.

There's a site dedicated to promoting his music with some free scores and links to purchase others here: https://sites.google.com/site/williambainescomposer/works

[thalbergmad]

ultimately of little real consequence.

But your ears are not tuned to romanticism. If this work was 6 hours long and full of plinks, you would claim it a masterpiece.

The only reason I linked to this is because the 2nd PC was not on you tube. Incredibly, it is greater than the variations and surely must rank in the top five of British PC's.

Thal

[ahinton]

But your ears are not tuned to romanticism.

Who says so? And, more importantly, on the grounds of what evidence? I'm afraid that you're way off beam there! How anyone steeped as I am in Berlioz, Chopin, Liszt, Tchaikovsky, Brahms, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler, Strauss and heaven alone knows could possibly possess ears that are not attuned to Romanticism is beyond me!

If this work was 6 hours long and full of plinks, you would claim it a masterpiece.

I do not know what a plink is, but were this work indeed 6 hours long it would be unbearable, whereas as it is it's merely superficially attractive, competent and not much more (in my opinion).

The only reason I linked to this is because the 2nd PC was not on you tube. Incredibly, it is greater than the variations and surely must rank in the top five of British PC's.

Which are the others, would you say, All of Bowen's, perhaps? Bush's? Pray tell!

Best,

Alistair

[ahinton]

Andrew Lloyd Weber

Love it! Almost as good as "Lionel Bartók"!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Bush's?

Overlong meandering garbage.

Thal

[ahinton]

Overlong meandering garbage.

I don't agree with the first or second of these and the nearest that the piece ever gets to the third is when, in its finale, the proceedings seem to get held up for the intrusion of a piece of tacky doggerel that might well have ruined the entire work were it not for the composer's skill in handing the music itself. It's quite abit shorter than the Busoni, anyway!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

It's quite abit shorter than the Busoni, anyway!

Thank Gawd for that.

Thal

[ahinton]

Thank Gawd for that.

Why? Alan Bush did not believe in God anyway - and what's wrong with the duration of Busoni's Piano Concerto (given its contents that more than amply justify it)?

These and quite a few other questions appear to remain unanswered here - not least your top five British piano concertos and the identity of the composer from whom you would recommend taking a composition course...

Best,

Alistair

[hozepshad]

What about Orlando Gibbons, Glenn Gould really liked his music.

[g_s_223]

Just for the purposes of record, here are some living British composers of some established reputation not previously mentioned, in alphabetical order:

IMO, four out of five of these have some talent...

[thalbergmad]

not least your top five British piano concertos

Sterndale Bennett 4 would have to be in there, and definitely Stanford 2. Bowen 4 is pretty much a must and for pure fun the Bache. I would probably complete my 5 with the Bainton, but no doubt my opinions would change in time and I might swap it with the Gipps, Hurlstone,  Harty or the hugely romatic Sherwood.

Berkeley, Britten, Bush, Fricker, Maxwell Davies, Reizenstein, Tavener, Tippett, Vaughan Williams, Wordsworth are horrid and some not even worth the effort to type out.

Out of the plinkers, Chisholm interests me the most.

Satisfied??

Thal

[ahinton]

Sterndale Bennett 4 would have to be in there, and definitely Stanford 2. Bowen 4 is pretty much a must and for pure fun the Bache. I would probably complete my 5 with the Bainton, but no doubt my opinions would change in time and I might swap it with the Gipps, Hurlstone,  Harty or the hugely romatic Sherwood.

Berkeley, Britten, Bush, Fricker, Maxwell Davies, Reizenstein, Tavener, Tippett, Vaughan Williams, Wordsworth are horrid and some not even worth the effort to type out.

Out of the plinkers, Chisholm interests me the most.

Satisfied??

That you have declared you hand with your chosen top five British piano concertos, yes (although I wouldn't agree with any of the choices except Bowen 4). I don;t know the Sherwood but hope that it is not romatic or even rheumatic.

At least one can appreciate that, despite your assertion that "some [composers in your list are] not even worth the effort to type out", you have nevertheless made that effort and, presumably, you have also at least made the effort to listen to all of their piano concertos.

What is a "plinker"? Chisholm was certainly a most interesting musician and, speaking of piano concertos (of which he wrote two, as you know), he greatly admired Sorabji's fifth one (probably the only one that he ever saw, actually, as it was the only one that had been published, albeit as "Concerto II"); what a pity that he never got to hear it, as he would have done had he lived to the age of 99...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

you have nevertheless made that effort and, presumably, you have also at least made the effort to listen to all of their piano concertos.

I have yet to form an opinion on any work that I have not heard, albeit my memory is a bit hazy on some I mentioned and some I did not. Works that I detest leave my brain rather quickly, leaving perhaps only an impression.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

That you have declared you hand with your chosen top five British piano concertos, yes (although I wouldn't agree with any of the choices except Bowen 4)

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your top 5, even if it is a plinkers paradise.

Thal

[ahinton]

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your top 5, even if it is a plinkers paradise.

I could indeed try, although it wouldn't - and indeed couldn't - be what you imply that it might, since I have no idea what a "plinker" is and would therefore be unlikely to recognise what one might consider to be his/her "paradise"; it's not an easy choice to make, by any means, but my first thoughts would be Bowen 4, Bush, Stevenson 1, Tippett and Ogdon, though even as I write I am acutely conscious of quite a few more by other British composes that some might well regard as possibly legitimate contenders (for example Rubbra, Rawsthorne, McCabe, Simpson, Searle, Ireland, Bliss, Sorabji and at least some of the names that you mentioned in your list).

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Oh well, at least we agree on one of them.

Thal

[thalbergmad]

and the identity of the composer from whom you would recommend taking a composition course...

A Hinton

[ahinton]

A Hinton

In the light of your post #8 in this thread (to which I was referring when asking about this), are you therefore suggesting that I should take a composition course from myself? I hope that I will be able to afford the fee!

Bowen's reputation has really only begun to grow just lately, which I find surprising; whilst Sorabji's advocacy of Liszt, Busoni, Reger, Medtner, Mahler, Godowsky, Szymanowski, Alkan et al has certainly long since gotten people to sit up and take notice, his commendations of the work of Bowen have largely fallen on deaf ears until very recently.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

whilst Sorabji's advocacy of Liszt, Busoni, Reger, Medtner, Mahler, Godowsky, Szymanowski, Alkan et al has certainly long since gotten people to sit up and take notice

Then we must be eternally grateful, albeit perhaps said composers would have blossomed without Sorabji's advocacy.

Unless of course, if his musings were read by millions.

Thal

[ahinton]

Then we must be eternally grateful, albeit perhaps said composers would have blossomed without Sorabji's advocacy.

Well, most of them certainly took their time!...

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

I think I will celebrate George Lloyd's 100th birthday tomorrow with a couple of his symphonies.

Another British composer who is now beginning to be recognised and deservedly so.

He never resorted to Plinkism and a rich melodic vein runs through his works.

Happy Birthday George.

Luv

Thal

[ahinton]

I think I will celebrate George Lloyd's 100th birthday tomorrow with a couple of his symphonies.

Another British composer who is now beginning to be recognised and deservedly so.

He never resorted to Plinkism and a rich melodic vein runs through his works.

Happy Birthday George.

Echoed.

I'm not so sure about him, though. He certainly had a most promising start and indeed almost spearheaded the English symphonic revival in the 1930s - and having a successful opera under your belt at the age of around 20 is likewise no mean feat. I don't think, however, that he ever really recovered fully from the tragic incident during WWII of which he fell victim and I cannot help but think that this affected much of his subsequent work.

His orchestral mastery is never in doubt (try the Eighth Symphony for evidence of that), he had a fine grasp of vocal line and there's no questioning his integrity and courage in writing just as he wanted to and felt that he had to; having most of his work so consistently rejected by BBC during the Glock era was pretty much unforgivable (although he was not the only English tonal symphonist who suffered that fate at the time). Had it not been for what's now commonly called his "Indian summer", I suspect that he would have died a very disappointed man.

When the fates finally got around to treating him rather better, he certainly managed to get through to quite large audiences - and, after all, getting through to people is what the art of composition is all about - but such as I know of his work (which is not all, by any means - I've heard little of it post the Ninth Symphony) just seems for the most part to lack real depth of character and individuality and to depend overmuch on mere competence and craftsmanship.

He's arguably best known for his twelve symphonies and, as he stands chronologically between the Rubbra/Walton/Berkeley/Rawsthorne/Tippett generation and that of Simpson and Arnold as far as 20th century English symphonists go (his closest symphonic contemporary in these isles being Jones), comparisons are perhaps inevitable and I remain to be convinced that his symphonic offerings stand up to the best of these others. As castaway on BBC Radio 4's long-running Desert Island Discs series at the age of 81, one of the discs that he chose was a work that he described as the greatest symphony ever written by an Englishman - Elgar's Second; can't really argue with him there.

I think that one of his better works is the Fourth Symphony, for all that it rather overstays its welcome and has a tub-thumping emptily confident sounding close that might bear comparison with the coda of Shostakovich's Fifth Symphony for sheerly sickening jingoistic-sounding braggadocio were it not for its likely place as a necessarily cathartic conclusion for someone desperately struggling to put himself together again as he had to do in order to continue to have any kind of meaningful life at all; I think that, on the whole, it nevertheless contains some of his finest and most deeply felt music.

The Eighth Symphony, as I suggested, also has a fair amount going for it but, to my mind, one work stands out well above all his others and that is the Seventh Symphony; had the majority of his work been of its calibre, his place in the British symphonic tradition would be unquestionably assured (it happens to be the only one of his symphonies that I've ever heard live, but I don't think that this experience is what persuaded me to consider it to be the pinnacle of his achievement).

There's plenty to interest forum members here - no less than four piano concertos, each of which was, according to the composer, somehow responsible for begetting the next; I don't get the impression that there's really more than one concerto in the lot, to be honest. John Ogdon befriended Lloyd in the 1970s and championed his work, not only by playing it but by badgering a then reluctant BBC about it.

He turned away from symphonies in favour of choral works in his final decade and I need to get to know the works from this period. His final work was a Requiem in memory of Diana, Princess of Wales and I suspect that he knew that it would be his last as he scored it for modest forces, probably because he suspected that, had he employed a full symphony orchestra in the work, he might never have gotten to complete it.

There remains no small amount of snobbery surrounding him, even today, principally from those who regard him as something of an unreformed anachronism; I have no patience with that kind of attitude, since a composer's duty is to him/herself in writing as he/she feels motivated to write, not to fit in with what might appear to be the latest fashion for the sake of it.

That said, he hardly really holds his own as one of that trio of centenarists this year (the other two being Britten and Lutosławski), but this year will be a useful one in which to reappraise his work as, like those other two, he has a comparatively large number of performances this year.

Yes, happy birthday, George; they'll certainly be singing that loudly in his native Cornwall!

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

A very interesting, albeit unusually short post.

Thal

[ahinton]

A very interesting, albeit unusually short post.

A self-referential observation, I take it?(!)...

I should perhaps have added to my post about Lloyd that it is said that Ogdon asked him for lessons in orchestration, although I am not certain that these ever actually took place.

Best,

Alistair

[thalbergmad]

Why not ask Brenda??

I am sure she would let you know.

For a small fee.

Thal

[ahinton]

Why not ask Brenda??

I am sure she would let you know.

For a small fee.

I suspect that you know quite a lot more than you're letting on here! That said, I also suspect that there may be a couple of inaccuracies in what you write, the first being the word "small" and the second possibly centring around the question of whether or to what extent George Lloyd was a name that she much cared to hear...

Anyway, answering your question would almost certainly require an uncharacteristically LONG post, for reasons that you will doubtless be able to deduce from reading between the lines of this one!

On a related subject, I might also mention that George Lloyd is the dedicatee of Ogdon's Piano Concerto that I mentioned earlier (there is a second Ogdon piano concerto, or concertino, about which I know nothing beyond its existence and I am unaware that it has yet been performed).

Best,

Alistair