Having trouble with this part of Reverie - Debussy

[jbyoun1990]

I've been playing piano for many many years, but I feel as though I lack the very basics sometimes.
This is one of those cases.
Please refer to the image (https://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=8zftzb&s=5)

So, as "A" in the image shows, I'm supposed to hold the F note for the entire measure, however, it's very hard to play the "B" while holding this note. Yes, it is possible, but almost unreasonable, and there are other parts of Reverie where I am apparently supposed to hold a note for the entire measure but the later notes makes it extremely difficult.

My question: Am I REALLY supposed to hold that note? I've came across many other parts in this piece that makes me wonder, and I was thinking if the pedal has anything to do it.
Please help me out here, thanks...

[chopin2015]

Can you play the Cs with 1 5 and hold the F with the 2nd finger, hold it and play next octave with same 1 5. Then switch from finger 2 to finger 3 on the F, and play next chord with finger 1 2 5 while still holding F with finger 3 now. ?

[jamaicaway]

I agree with chopin2015, you really should hold that F. and switching from 2 to 3 is the only way to do it. You must also be referring to measures 37-38, where the whole notes can't possibly be held. I would call these "conceptual" notes. What Debussy is saying is that the harmony is D major throughout the whole measure, but you have some freedom in how long to hold the notes and how to pedal. I'd make sure the quarter rest is clear, and the descending arpeggio in 38, but otherwise the pedal can maintain the harmony.

A more difficult situation sometimes occurs in Debussy, where the bass note can't possibly be held but the harmony changes so you can't hold the pedal down either. That's another story!

Keep enjoying this beautiful piece.

[birba]

Absolutely not.  You will ruin the whole mood and andamento of the piece if you try to hold notes down and substitute fingers as if you were playing the organ.  Look at the sonority and harmony of the  four measures.  They're all b-flat major.  You hold the pedal down for these two measures and there's no need to hold that f down.
At this point i would be curious to hear your rendition of this little gem!i

[louispodesta]

Okay, for starters, as I pointed out in my original post, the chords are supposed to be rolled throughout.  That is the way Debussy played his own music.

Even though, he didn't record this particular piece, he rolled practically every single chord in those works that he did record.

Second, what I do is to roll the first chord and hold the F with my forefinger while playing the second D octave.  I then release the forefinger and then play a rolled third chord.

One needs to determine what is the compositional goal is here.  By examining two measures before, it is evident that he is trying to establish the harmony of a B Flat seventh chord in both instances.

By showing the whole note F, he is telling the performer that the surrounding C octave chord is a passing chord used to give the section further movement.  And, considering the "piu crescendo" marking, if played properly, there is no way you are going to hear a held over F anyway.

Debussy was described as using something called "overlapping pedaling," which is a nice way of saying that he used a lot of pedaling throughout his pieces, even often pedaling through the rests.

In this measure, if you hold the pedal for the entire measure, then you have your whole note F.  Me thinks that is what the composer had in mind because in the two measures prior, he uses a half note in the first chord of the measure, indicating a change of pedal on the third beat.

Finally, for those who missed it the first time, I list the link to my original post.  I highly recommend that you listen to the Debussy examples in Part II.

[nyiregyhazi]

Okay, for starters, as I pointed out in my original post, the chords are supposed to be rolled throughout.  That is the way Debussy played his own music.

Despite being a lifelong advocate of spread chords, this statement really alarms me. If spreads are played because they are "supposed" to be done, it will sound abysmal. Good spreads come from desire to produce a quality of sound. Not from some pedantic obligation about what is or isn't correct. You've also claimed that Rachmaninoff "always" breaks octaves which is patent nonsense- plus piano rolls are totally unreliable and often make chords struck together uneven in placement (as evidenced by comparison of Rachmaninoff's rolls and acoustic recordings).  Please don't give those who use romantic spreads as musical gesture a bad name, by telling people they are "supposed" to spread every chord  or by claiming that Debussy only played spread chords. You actively weaken the cause, with such silly hyperbole.

The romantic style is a matter of having musical choice and freedoms to explore- not pedantic obligations to perform gestures on demand.

[nyiregyhazi]

On the original topic, btw, note that the F is NOT tied to the next bar, whereas the new chord is. This strikes me as a strong clue. There's no musical reason to release at that precise moment, as the pedal instruction is clear about keeping it depressed. This suggests that the F is probably not going to be physically held- as Debussy appears to have forgotten about it altogether by then. However, I'd definitely use it for support on the octave D and then just feel that's it's already been established perfectly well enough to carry on lasting.

[louispodesta]

I have discussed arpeggiation at length with Ken Caswell, who re-recorded the Debussy roll.  When I told him that it is often stated that a block chord cannot be played on a Welte-Migon piano, his answer has always been a common expletive which cannot be printed here.

You, sir, have never spoken to directly or written or emailed correspondence to any person who has recorded on one of these pianos.  Therefore, your technical knowledge on this subject is conjecture at best!  Further, when Earl Wild, who heard Rachmaninoff perform "live" over 100 times, says the composer rarely played a non-broken octave, then that trumps some studio recording, and then some.

Further, I am personal friends with the composer Ramon Sender who is the only living student of George Copeland.  Copeland was the only American to ever personally study under Claude Debussy, and his analog recordings show arpeggiation throughout.  Therefore, I have the living testimony from one of his students that this is the way the music was played by his teacher, who was taught by the composer.

And, for the record, Claude Debussy put no pedal markings in his piano music, nor did he suggest any fingerings.

[nyiregyhazi]

I have discussed arpeggiation at length with Ken Caswell, who re-recorded the Debussy roll.  When I told him that it is often stated that a block chord cannot be played on a Welte-Migon piano, his answer has always been a common expletive which cannot be printed here.

You, sir, have never spoken to directly or written or emailed correspondence to any person who has recorded on one of these pianos.  Therefore, your technical knowledge on this subject is conjecture at best!  Further, when Earl Wild, who heard Rachmaninoff perform "live" over 100 times, says the composer rarely played a non-broken octave, then that trumps some studio recording, and then some.

Further, I am personal friends with the composer Ramon Sender who is the only living student of George Copeland.  Copeland was the only American to ever personally study under Claude Debussy, and his analog recordings show arpeggiation throughout.  Therefore, I have the living testimony from one of his students that this is the way the music was played by his teacher, who was taught by the composer.

And, for the record, Claude Debussy put no pedal markings in his piano music, nor did he suggest any fingerings.

Who said said they cannot do blocked chords? There are plenty of blocked chords in your debussy example on the video. They are unreliable, not incapable. I don't give a damn what any supposed authority on piano rolls says, as I have first hand evidence of rachmaninoff audio. He does not do the lumpy asynchronisations that make it easy to identify virtually all piano rolls by ear. He spreads chords regularly, but nothing like that awful clanky roll sound. In my opinion, anyone who places too much interest or faith in rolls is by definition a poor listener, so I care little what any piano roll fanatic claims. Piano rolls offer approximation, not accurate documentation of a player's dynamics or even rhythm. The Ravel and Paderewski are classic examples of bad piano rolls. Paderewski never has that jerky sound on audio

As for earl wild, he's clearly exaggerating-oblivious to the fact that such cranks as yourself will read hyperbole at face value. Why did he not comment on the discrepancy in his recordings- if the comment supposedly differentiates from the fact he only spread SOME on recordings? Yes, he regularly broke chords but certainly not as a rule. It's scarcely better to assert that all chords should be broken to ban it. Great pianists break chords because they FEEL like it- not because of an intellectual premise. I haven't heard copeland but the issue is HOW OFTEN he spreads chords. Not whether he does. Of course he spreads chords! That goes without saying. All pianists of that time did. Unless you seriously claim he spreads EVERY chord then you're not bringing anything at all surprising to the table and neither does this issue support your exaggerated claims.


Nothing would ever stop me spreading chords freely and liberally. However, failure to use objectivity does not support the cause. There are plenty of perfectly good ways to argue objectively, rather than like a lawyer (who cares only about supporting a cause- without being critical about the quality and precise context of evidence). Frankly, I'd spread chords whether there were evidence or not, anyway. However turn it into something you MUST do as normal (based on casual acceptance of unreliable evidence) and it's merely an academic thing and not a musical tool. You do the cause no favour with your attitude.

[pianoman53]

When you've played more Debussy, you'll notice that he does things like that all the time. It always becomes a question about the sound, as with all composers. I can't imagine a composer writing a note that has nothing to do with the sound, with the exception of etudes or exercises.

So the answer will be that it's your own choice. If you want to hold it, you do, and if you don't, you don't. Though, don't pick your way because of what's the easiest, but about the sound. But I doubt you can play the top voices clearly with a good tone while holding the f...

[chopin2015]

I will agree (to some degree) with our good friend birba that-you should probably just use the pedal. However, I was taught by more than one teacher, that you should hold notes for their given duration if you can, to create the right effect. I don't mean to compare Chopin to Debussy, but going back to basics: think about anything simple...like dividing the notes into melody, bass and middle/texture or second melody. That half note in Debussy could be something in the middle, or a repeat of melodic elements in the bass. You need to think more creatively. I am not saying you can't fully emphasize the melody important to the music by using the pedal to hold the f. I am saying, think about more than what the composer did, beyond rolling chords like Debussy. Do what sounds and feels good to you. Your hands can do many things/play many melodies at the same time, so stop being so casual with music and live a little more experimentally. Also, when people say that Debussy is based on using pedal to mix many harmonies together, I say sure. BUT if that is all it is, then we would also have a lot of dissonance. I really think you can pedal as much as you want, but dissect what you are doing, where you are pedaling and answer the question of why. Using just the pedal to create new combinations of harmony and sustain,  resonance is not very creative and is pretty limited, in my opinion. I really am not in any way suggesting you must hold that note nor use the fingering I provided. But unlike questions I have posted in the past, yours does not deem only one correct answer.
In addition to everything I agree and disagree with, I really think you could form your own interpretation based on a combination of suggestions made here, applied to the study of this, or any piece!
Good luck to you.