What is talent? How do you know you're musically talented?

[dima_76557]

Actually, since there has been no agreement as to what talent is (or what it would be, were it to exist), any attempt to identify it's existence seems rather fraught. How do I know if shrdlu exits if I don't know what shrdlu even is?

Ok. Here is a description in simple English of how people usually understand it:
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talent

Talent means the skill that someone has quite naturally to do something that is hard. Someone who has talent is able to do something without trying hard. It is an ability that someone is born with. it is a high degree of ability or of aptitudes. People may have talent for music, dancing, acting, sport or other skills. Someone who has talent is talented:

Mozart had a talent for music. He had a great talent. He was very talented.

We say that someone is “born with a talent”.

If someone has talent they still have to work very hard if they want to be very good at something. Some people become quite good at something even if they do not have much talent, but if they are willing to work very hard at the skill. Some people “waste their talent” (they have talent but do not work hard at it, they do not “use their talent”).

Other words for talent are aptitude or gift. A talented person is a gifted person.

This is not good enough, though, because we already determined in this topic that talent also seems to be related to a certain mindset.
EDIT: We also determined that certain factors may affect it.

One reason science may not be very willing to confirm the existence of aptitude could be that the evidence may be (ab)used to confirm other stuff that is perceived as politically incorrect.

[outin]

How do I know if shrdlu exits if I don't know what shrdlu even is?

You really don't know what shrdlu is? 

[faulty_damper]

You really don't know what shrdlu is? 

Hell, I don't know what "shrdlu" is.

[outin]

Hell, I don't know what "shrdlu" is.

I guess you people are just too young...It is an archaic computer program...

[dima_76557]

EDIT: We also determined that certain factors may affect it.

One interesting point we haven't discussed here yet is that children are evaluated from birth in "scoring points" regarding their development. In evaluating the evidence, we have to keep in mind that there is a "norm" we are not told. These are all skills the babies are supposed to develop themselves. Some babies do much better than the "norm". Some do much worse. Some may be much better in one "norm", while they are worse in another. Here is a list of the most severe "red flags" (rather limited in its value for the future of the baby) for different stages in the development. If these don't happen within the expected time frame, you should contact a specialist. No guarantees that this will be solved eventually. Not knowing or not noticing any of these at the right time may have serious consequences for how the baby is going to develop further. We should also keep in mind that these may appear in all layers of society all over the world, regardless of race, sex, environment, opportunities, etc.:

1 month:
Feeds slowly or doesn't suck well
Doesn't seem to focus her eyes or watch things moving nearby
Doesn't react to bright lights
Seems especially stiff or floppy
Doesn't respond to loud sounds

3 months:
Can't support his head well
Can't grasp objects
Can't focus on moving objects
Doesn't smile
Doesn't react to loud sounds
Ignores new faces
Seems upset by unfamiliar people or surroundings

4 to 7 months:
Seems very stiff or floppy
Can't hold her head steady
Can't sit on her own
Doesn't respond to noises or smiles
Isn't affectionate with those closest to her
Doesn't reach for objects

8 to 12 months:
Doesn't crawl
Seems to drag one side while he's crawling for a month or more
Can't stand with support
Doesn't try to find objects you've hidden in front of him
Doesn't say any words
Doesn't use gestures, such as shaking his head "no" and pointing

13 to 24 months:
Can't walk by 18 months
Doesn't understand the use of everyday objects
Doesn't speak at least six words by 18 months or two-word sentences by 24 months
Doesn't imitate words and actions
Doesn't follow simple instructions
Loses skills he previously had

25 to 36 months:
Struggles with separation anxiety
Doesn't interact with people outside her family
Doesn't play with other children
Avoids eye contact
Can't throw a ball or jump
Can't climb stairs with alternating feet
Has trouble scribbling
Doesn't use more than three words in a sentence
Isn't able to complete a sentence
Is often difficult for strangers to understand when she talks
Doesn't play make-believe
Excessively balks at basic self-care, like getting dressed or going to sleep
Loses skills she previously had

Source: https://www.babycenter.com/milestone-charts-birth-to-age-3

[lostinidlewonder]

Then I will just refer back to my prevous posts...

You just sound like you are used to failure then.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sure, but often not in a market that is already oversaturated.

This is a failure mentality.

In the Third World, the opportunities may be even better than at home:
Go West - UK Graduates head to Africa
Ambitious graduates are increasingly moving to Africa in a bid to avoid menial jobs in Britain.

Errr.... we were talking about being born and living in a third world and what opportunity you have there, not coming from the Western World to look for opportunity in a 3rd which is totally different.

[dima_76557]

This is a failure mentality.

Are you sure? Realizing that your own market is oversaturated, and that somewhere else it isn't, so that's where your opportunities are is very much a winner's mentality. Besides, those "winners" are the brave people that can create new and great opportunities for the locals that are out of options. Instead of sending them funds from abroad and feed them out of compassion, they can teach them how to "fish" and how to "hunt" within the niche, so they can support themselves. It only involves a certain risk many are not ready to take, but isn't that what your signature is about?
P.S.: It works the other way around too. If there is work to do in developed country X that locals don't want to do, as an inhabitant of underdeveloped country Y, you could choose to go to country X and do it yourself, make a better living than you had at home, and get out of your loser's position. All it takes is a change in mindsets and a little starting capital.

[dima_76557]

You just sound like you are used to failure then.

Outin is just wise enough to realize that it doesn't make sense to preach about "motivation", "hard work" and "equal opportunities" unless the weak points in a person or system have been addressed. Sometimes, it takes out-of-the-box thinking to recognize those weaknesses and great expertise to address them. You cannot always hold a person responsible for his/her lack of success.

[lostinidlewonder]

Are you sure? Realizing that your own market is oversaturated, and that somewhere else it isn't, so that's where your opportunities are is very much a winner's mentality.

So then we all should have remained riding horse and carts because the cars never should have been invented because the transportation industry already had a system that worked. Building the roads for the cars for example should not have been done because there already was roads for horse carts. The piano music world is certainly not saturated, simply compare it to the singing or band industry which is even more saturated but still has people aspiring and greatly succeeding.

[dima_76557]

The piano music world is certainly not saturated, simply compare it to the singing or band industry which is even more saturated but still has people aspiring and greatly succeeding.

The problem with a successful piano career is that the audience and the concert managers tend to think that "what is good comes from far away". They discriminate their own local talent in favor of some exotic players. Now, let's say you are a genius pianist in country X, and you know for a fact that in country Y, there is a niche in concert life, then it could be an option to go there and start up what you had in mind.

[outin]

You just sound like you are used to failure then.

Used to failure of people understanding what I am saying, yes. Side-effect of being a bit too smart I guess...

[lostinidlewonder]

The problem with a successful piano career is that the audience and the concert managers tend to think that "what is good comes from far away". They discriminate their own local talent in favor of some exotic players. Now, let's say you are a genius pianist in country X, and you know for a fact that in country Y, there is a niche in concert life, then it could be an option to go there and start up what you had in mind.

Maybe you should get to know some people who are actually in the music industry and earn a living and are very successful with music. A successful piano career rests on much more variation than just being a concert performer. And your concept of what makes a successful performing career in this quote is void of any industry experience.

[lostinidlewonder]

Used to failure of people understanding me yes. Side-effect of being a bit too smart I guess...

Yes it must be everyone else not you.

[dima_76557]

Maybe you should get to know some people who are actually in the music industry and earn a living and are very successful with music. A successful piano career rests on much more variation than just being a concert performer. And your concept of what makes a successful performing career in this quote is void of any industry experience.

Since I am only a student, you may very well be right. I can only process information I hear from others and from what I read about the subject. But besides you, there are some other good professional performers here on the forum. I hope they will also weigh in to share their views on the matter.

[outin]

Yes it must be everyone else not you.

Fortunately not everyone...not everyone needs things explained from the scratch or have almost religious-like ideals that prevent them from seeing things from different angles...or in general see the complexity of reality

NOTE: I was not referring to anyone specific or someone in this thread here. Just a general observation of people...

[lostinidlewonder]

Fortunately not everyone...not everyone needs things explained from the scratch or have almost religious-like ideals that prevent them from seeing things from different angles...or in general see the complexity of reality

NOTE: I was not referring to anyone specific or someone in this thread here. Just a general observation of people...

Generally I don't like to make generalisations about people since humans are such complicated creatures.

[outin]

Generally I don't like to make generalisations about people since humans are such complicated creatures.

We generalize things all the time, it's impossible for the human mind to assess what happens around it otherwise...I do try to be counscious about it as much as possible.

[dima_76557]

So then we all should have remained riding horse and carts because the cars never should have been invented because the transportation industry already had a system that worked. Building the roads for the cars for example should not have been done because there already was roads for horse carts.

Actually, you are saying that all ancestors of contemporary mankind who went to America, Canada, Australia, etc. were all wrong for searching their opportunities not in their native countries, but some place else?

[lostinidlewonder]

Actually, you are saying that all ancestors of contemporary mankind who went to America, Canada, Australia, etc. were all wrong for searching their opportunities not in their native countries, but some place else?

No, but I am saying that in the 21st century we live in, if you live in America, Canada, Australia etc you are living in a country with all the opportunity you need to succeed in life. You must be able to use your current situation as a platform for other opportunities. If that means going overseas so be it, but you need to create that opportunity where you currently are now.

[dima_76557]

No, but I am saying that in the 21st century we live in, if you live in America, Canada, Australia etc you are living in a country with all the opportunity you need to succeed in life.

And I am simply saying that in the 21st century, there are people who have had it with the "equal opportunities" in America, Canada, and Australia and leave them for other countries where the opportunities at least seem to be more abundant. They just repeat the behavior of their ancestors that led to success, and are therefore justified to do so.

[lostinidlewonder]

We generalize things all the time, it's impossible for the human mind to assess what happens around it otherwise...I do try to be counscious about it as much as possible.

When interacting with people I find this is not a good idea.

[outin]

No, but I am saying that in the 21st century we live in, if you live in America, Canada, Australia etc you are living in a country with all the opportunity you need to succeed in life.

I really don't know what you mean by success in life. But the whole idea of everyone having the opportunity to succeed just because they live in one of the countries you list seems ridiculous. Maybe if you are born into a healthy middle-class family...Not into an environment of drug or alcohol abuse, mental problems, without proper living conditions suitable for a child, without either mental or physical security or stability, without good health care, possible violence or incest in the family...the list goes on. For every person who does (at least superficially) seem to succeed after such a childhood there are hundreds or more who won't. Are they all just lazy? Or maybe the ones who do succeed are "talented" or simply just lucky...

[outin]

When interacting with people I find this is not a good idea.

Actually I think being conscious about it really helps one to not act by one's generalizations but make more educated choices based on the situation.Something I have learned when working with people.

[dima_76557]

the whole idea of everyone having the opportunity to succeed just because they live in one of the countries you list seems ridiculous.

It is. It assumes that the initial absolute data for everybody are the same, and that every person can give X % intellectual and emotional energy to that project only (learning a certain skill, for example). You can predict both failure and success for a project reasonably well on objective parameters that have nothing to do with hard work, motivation, etc. The worse the initial biological, social and environmental data for a person are, the harder he/she will have to work on things that have nothing to do with the project itself, and only if everything that lacks is/can be properly diagnosed, addressed, and resolved is there any reasonable chance of the same amount of success in one and the same project, but with serious delay. Luck is then the decisive factor, as it is with all people.
EDIT: Oh, and you should also have your eyes open for the moment when luck/opportunity comes along to recognize it as such, otherwise you may simply miss it, and you may not get a second chance.

[lostinidlewonder]

Actually I think being conscious about it really helps one to not act by one's generalizations but make more educated choices based on the situation.Something I have learned when working with people.

If one does not harvest such generalisations on people in the first place then you could skip this procedure

[lostinidlewonder]

I really don't know what you mean by success in life. But the whole idea of everyone having the opportunity to succeed just because they live in one of the countries you list seems ridiculous.

Maybe if you live in a 3rd world country you might understand the freedom and great opportunity that we do have in the Western world.

Maybe if you are born into a healthy middle-class family...Not into an environment of drug or alcohol abuse, mental problems, without proper living conditions suitable for a child, without either mental or physical security or stability, without good health care, possible violence or incest in the family...the list goes on.

I know people who came from terrible upbringings who are extremely successful in life.

[outin]

If one does not harvest such generalisations on people in the first place then you could skip this procedure

And if pigs could fly...

[lostinidlewonder]

And if pigs could fly...

lol Yes they do, in police uniforms and in helicopters

[dima_76557]

I know people who came from terrible upbringings who are extremely successful in life.

I also know one from the West: Elvis Presley. He started as a truck driver, played guitar and sang on the streets of Memphis. He was very talented, but as poor as a church rat, as all of his relatives and friends were. Then one day, Colonel Tom Parker came along, and with his money started sponsoring Elvis and made him great. That kind of success you mean, when you are lucky enough to meet the right people at the right time?

[outin]

Maybe if you live in a 3rd world country you might understand the freedom and great opportunity that we do have in the Western world.

Now who says I don't understand it? I live in a "welfare state" and I can very much appreciate it. Yet I regularly meet people who didn't get the benefits from the welfare around them or who just happened to be born defected in some way. Misfortune also does seem to accumulate, when something goes wrong initially, it's quite hard to turn around the development.

I also know some very priviledged people from "3rd world countries"...wealth and position separates people wherever they live.

I know people who came from terrible upbringings who are extremely successful in life.

But have you considered HOW and WHY they managed to be so? And why all those other people aren't? No two person's experience will ever be exactly the same, even if it may superficially seem so.

I also know people who seemed to have everything going for them but failed miserably. Some of them blame themselves, some of them blame their circumstances. Neither is a very useful way of thinking really...How your life turns out depends on BOTH what you have and what you do.

[outin]

lol Yes they do, in police uniforms and in helicopters

You win! 

[j_menz]

I guess you people are just too young...It is an archaic computer program...

Yes, but not only.

[lostinidlewonder]

Now who says I don't understand it? I live in a "welfare state" and I can very much appreciate it.

Still that is nothin by comparison. Opportunity in third world is much different to the Western. The welfare mentality in Western worlds is very unproductive though.

Yet I regularly meet people who didn't get the benefits from the welfare around them or who just happened to be born defected in some way. Misfortune also does seem to accumulate, when something goes wrong initially, it's quite hard to turn around the development.

I know a lady with cerebral palsy and she is a lawyer. If you had that condition in a third world you would be in a much worse situation. Opportunity in western culture is much greater even with disability. I agree some people have it harder than others but they too can overcome their challenges. We all have different life challenges, some much more challenging than others but still not enough to make their life hopeless.

I also know people who seemed to have everything going for them but failed miserably. Some of them blame themselves, some of them blame their circumstances. Neither is a very useful way of thinking really...How your life turns out depends on BOTH what you have and what you do.

I believe it is commanded much more so by what you do.

[lostinidlewonder]

I also know one from the West: Elvis Presley. He started as a truck driver, played guitar and sang on the streets of Memphis. He was very talented, but as poor as a church rat, as all of his relatives and friends were. Then one day, Colonel Tom Parker came along, and with his money started sponsoring Elvis and made him great. That kind of success you mean, when you are lucky enough to meet the right people at the right time?

The window of opportunity is something many people ignore or become to apathetic or afraid to take. You tend to get luckier the harder you work and the more determined you are. Windows of opportunity open for everyone, we must simply be aware and be on the look out while we strive to achieve our dreams and aspirations. Failure itself is not bad, you will always be one failure closer to sweet success. Look at some of the great examples of the past (KFC or Edison) who dealt with failure much more than any of us will ever experience.

[dima_76557]

You tend to get luckier the harder you work and the more determined you are.

Not necessarily true. Everything depends on how well "excellence" is spread in your field. The more skills you have and the more skills your competitors have, the more all competitors in that field become dependent on luck to succeed. If you have very good skills and all the others don't, then you are not dependent on luck at all, and your skills start working for you. Sucks, right?
P.S.: Being lucky to find a very good teacher (the right one for you that is) is also crucial for your development. Hard work and motivation in the student combined with a lousy teacher cannot give more than average results. Now that really sucks, especially when they start blaming YOU for the results.

[outin]

The welfare mentality in Western worlds is very unproductive though.

This statement is a very popular one, yet very often poorly thought out. Unproductive in what way? Not enough suffering and competition for basic needs to make people desperately strive for a better life? Yes, maybe, but that striving always ends up with a lot of people failing and lots of social problems. Often also war and instability as is seen in the 3rd world countries.
Interestingly, according to studies, the more people are educated, the less they favor a society like that, even if it may actually benefit them over the less educated masses.

I know a lady with cerebral palsy and she is a lawyer. If you had that condition in a third world you would be in a much worse situation. Opportunity in western culture is much greater even with disability. I agree some people have it harder than others but they too can overcome their challenges. We all have different life challenges, some much more challenging than others but still not enough to make their life hopeless.
I believe it is commanded much more so by what you do.

Well, you are entitled to your opinions. I just base mine to the large body of existing research and my own ground level observations in different countries, not on individual cases. I admit I think yours seem like a naive attitude that I normally see in people who have lived a rather sheltered life and not personally witnessed or studied the large scale social problems that are present everywhere.

EDIT:
Actually it's probably not about being naive at all. It's just easier on people's conscience to think that other people are unpriviledged because they don't try hard enough. The idea that everyone can succeed makes it easier to enjoy one's own success. Since I don't have much of a conscience I don't need this kind of reassurance. I can enjoy being priviledged while still fully understanding that life is not fair and I am no more entitled to it that anyone else on this earth

[dima_76557]

Well, you are entitled to your opinions. I just base mine to the large body of existing research and my own ground level observations in different countries, not on individual cases. I admit I think yours seem like a naive attitude that I normally see in people who have lived a rather sheltered life and not personally witnessed or studied the large scale social problems that are present everywhere.

Your opinion is not just an opinion. It corresponds with how life really works. The decisive factor is LUCK - what you are born with, good looks, whether you are born a woman or a man, whether you "meet" (right from birth!) the right people who can do the right things for you at the right time, etc.
Example: When a woman applies for a job as a manager and the senior manager is a male, everything is already against her if that company doesn't have a policy of "affirmative action" (positive discrimination) unless:
1) she has exceptionally good looks
2) she can SUGGEST somehow subconsciously that she might be in for something else but work.
Her absolute qualifications and motivation have minimum impact on what the result will be.

That's how society works. It seems to me that the motivation myth was invented when there was no competition yet, and the ones that were suddenly successful in a certain field dreamed it all up. As soon as everybody starts being motivated, the mechanism stops working and we are back to square one (the decisive factor): LUCK. Talent - however hard that is to acknowledge is also (at least partly) luck.
P.S.: Just in case: this should not keep us from making the best of our situation, and it is clear for virtually everybody that motivation and hard work is crucial to be able to do just that, but nothing more.

[dima_76557]

Look at some of the great examples of the past (KFC or Edison) who dealt with failure much more than any of us will ever experience.

I had to check my sources before I could reply to that argument.

The great thing about Edison is that, judging from his many quotes, he was at least grateful for what he had received in life, so that's a lesson he managed to learn, and in that respect he should be an example for all of us.

Still, in the face of talent and coping with failure, your example is more than unlucky. Edison is the major reason why people realized that something had to be done against copyright infringement. I wonder what happened to all those talents whose ideas he "borrowed", improved, and patented as his own, and then systematically blocked from entering the market. Most of them were never heard of again. How well did they cope with their failure?

[lostinidlewonder]

Tut tut, dima you are very empty of knowledge when it comes to discussing Edison and other things. Not worth my time, get your p2u account back your pretend accounts are boring.

[lostinidlewonder]

This statement is a very popular one, yet very often poorly thought out. Unproductive in what way?

If you don't know then your own response sounds poorly thought out.

Well, you are entitled to your opinions.

Thanks, but I don't seek approval from randoms on the net.

 

Actually it's probably not about being naive at all.

You don't know me so trying to guess is useless. Probably had a lot more life experience than most.

[ale_ius]

I ams not comments on the argument of thread, but I want to share due to the name used in above, Edison (I beliefs you mean Thomas?), many people have elevates his actual demeanor, he was a JERK!

https://www.somethingawful.com/news/edison-jerk-elephant/

searches for other references on Edisonn yields similar stories of his ruthless and all arounds awful character.

ok thank you.

--Alee Marie

[faulty_damper]

Here's an interview podcast about talent and intelligence.  The author, Scott Barry Kaufman, whom is interviewed in the podcast, had just written a book called, Ungifted: Intelligence Redefined.  He writes: 

"What do IQ tests measure? Can intelligence be improved? How should we select students for gifted and talented programs? How well do IQ tests predict success in life? How important are characteristics such as self-regulation and ambition? What about deliberate practice? What is the neuroscience of intelligence?

These are some of the most hot button issues facing us today in society.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of misunderstandings about the IQ test– what they measure, what they predict, how they should be used — which get repeated over and over again in these discussions."

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/2013/08/23/iq-test-controversies-persist/

[drazh]

What is talent? simple
  IQ+hard work

[faulty_damper]

What is talent? simple
  IQ+hard work

Cognitive researchers don't think so.  It's apparent that IQ can only measure some cognitive attributes and the interpretation of scores is what often gets misunderstood.  For example, who do you think has the higher IQ scores on the verbal component, monolinguals or bi/multi linguals?  If you think it's bi/multi linguals, you'd be wrong.  Monolinguals, a person who only speaks one language, score higher on the verbal portions of IQ tests than those who can speak more than one language.  The faulty interpretation here is that speaking more than one language makes a person stupid since they have lower IQs.

As for hard work, you can drink soup using a fork as much as you want, but compared to a person who uses a spoon, you'd still be drinking that soup for lunch, dinner, and breakfast and you still haven't finished.  Smart work > hard work.  There's a reason why pianists who practice far more achieve far less than some who practice smarter.

[drazh]

Smart work > hard work. 

smart=higher IQ
work =hard work
both are the same

[dima_76557]

smart=higher IQ

Whose IQ? The teacher's? Rarely do students find out the smartest way to work for themselves without being taught some tricks of the trade, so if the student learns something in this respect, it is usually nothing more than artificial intelligence.

work =hard work

"Hard work" is only effective if it is done in the right direction. Do it the wrong way and you'll soon be part of the ever growing army of disabled musicians.

[drazh]

piano learning without teacher is impossible
smart people are more intelligent
with teacher useless practice will be limted

[dima_76557]

piano learning without teacher is impossible

I know some people who did that. It seems to be possible, but it is certainly not for everyone. You probably need "talent" to be able to do that on your own and get very far.

smart people are more intelligent

Yes, but smart people do not necessarily know how to work efficiently in a field they have no knowledge of. A qualified teacher can foresee the whole road from beginning to perfection with all the details, may guide, redirect, etc. I doubt a student has that kind of knowledge, and it will all be guesswork, trial and error practice, which, although it may look or feel "smart", may lead him/her astray.

with teacher useless practice will be limted

Depends on how qualified the teacher is. If the teacher is so-so, he/she may actually work against the student's needs, and then that student might have been better off working on his/her own.

[faulty_damper]

piano learning without teacher is impossible
smart people are more intelligent
with teacher useless practice will be limted

Are you trolling?  Please use punctuation, capitalization, and proper grammar.

The truth in what you say is the exact opposite.  I won't go further, until I know you're not trolling.