Building blocks to learn

[sheraz]

I have been learning for about 1 1/2 years but many times with my teacher(s), I came across the points where my teacher deveated me from the molody because I ddin't have aquired skills. It has happened a few times which clearly shows that I'm missing basic blocks. None of my teachers so far have made me work on scales/arpeggios. Also no finger exercises.
So the question is: Is there is good defined path/course/guideline that can guide a student+teacher to follow in a sequencial way?
Please not that my target is not to become a concert pianist. I play because I enjoy it very much and also because it's a very challenging.
Thx.

[ajspiano]

So the question is: Is there is good defined path/course/guideline that can guide a student+teacher to follow in a sequencial way?

Yes and no.

There are certain elements that may count as "basics" that each person must learn in great detail. However, very soon in development each of us discover our unique challenges and/or natural strengths and our path of learning becomes one exclusive to ourselves (though it may share many elements with other peoples ofcourse).

I feel (as a teacher) that any good teacher will have a plan for each student that develops specific skills as necessary.. and that often times there may be a kind of path that you take multiple students through. But its difficult to be overly specific toward a "general" type hypothetical student, because the 'path' deviates for any number of possible reasons quite frequently depending on what the student needs and what motivates them.

But.. Generalised..

Suppose there are sections of knowledge and skills to develop..

Sight reading
Theory
    scales/keys
    harmony
    terms & signs
    etc.
Technique
Performance Repertoire
    Baroque
    Classical
    Romantic
    Modern/Contemporary
History/composers/repertoire knowledge
Ear Skills
Improvisation
Composition

etc.

You may try to include in your learning program something that covers all bases.. so you are developing equally in all areas at once, often times though there is too much to do for a students available practice time so you may focus on a particular few areas for some time, and then look at something else a little way down the track.

Only the trouble is that they all intertwine and overlap so its somewhat difficult to outline a balanced program without the help of someone very experienced.

Each of your "skill sets" may also have an extended plan in place. So you may have a progressive plan for baroque repertoire, as well as for classical rep and so on..  Some people may use exercises, or etudes to develop technique along the way that match up with their repertoire plans as well, or they may simply develop their technique totally through the studied repertoire. There may be a "sight reading material" list of repertoire which is full of music at a significantly lower technical level than your performance repertoire lists, and sight reading exercises that go along with that..  You may also have a set path for your scales, such as learning them all in a certain order.

....

This is very much however a "list of options" kind of deal. Few people I run into as students have either the time or required dedication to work on an all encompassing program. You may or may not be that person, and ideally your teacher understands what your time/motivation levels are and so can construct a program ideal for you in reference to that.

That said if your teacher doesn't do that, that doesn't make him/her a bad teacher either.. and don't feel as though you can't investigate such things on your own and use your teacher to help you problem solve when you run into difficulties, rather than as a governing person that decides everything you work on.

[sheraz]

ajspiano,
       Thanks for the detail reply. A few interesting points

Some people may use exercises, or etudes to develop technique along the way that match up with their repertoire plans as well, or they may simply develop their technique totally through the studied repertoire.

That is exactly what I was thinking. If my teacher assigns me a repertoire to work on, he/she would think it through and know what challenges I'd face and have me work on technique part as well to overcome/learn them. Sadly that is not happening. Plus the word technique has confused me the most since I have been learning piano. So many definitions and ways and ideas of piano techniques. My current teacher teaches Taubman and views everything from that perspective. The only technique that we have worked on so far is how to press keys with relaxation and complete wait on each finger. No arpeggeos, no training on playing faster.
I did go on my own to see what else is out there besides Taubman and got lost. There are so many positive and negetive views of each style. Finger lifting/ no finger lifting, Russian style/Taubman style and many more. How would a new student like me with only 1 1/2 years of experience know which one to follow. It's not like I'm 12 years old and have a lot of time to play around with all styles.

Plus my teacher even forgets what part I'm working on when I show up in the class. I don't know if it's a bad sign. She is a good teacher but I feel like there is no systematic approch or progress. Currently I'm working on Chopin Prelude The Prelude Op. 28, No. 15 Rain Drop. When she told me that I should work on it, I was very excited because it's a beautiful peace but didn't know what am I going to learn from it. I know that she gave it to me because she knew that I like it very much but no explanation of what am I going to learn from this piece. What challenges I'll face and new things I'll learn. Is it too much to expect???

I thought it'd be like: "play a melody you know". Then the teacher observes and explains what technical parts are missing or weak and come up with a plan to fulfill them. Gives melodies to play and exercises to work on that'd overcome those weakness.

If I'm just going to keep on playing different melodies, what am I learning besides the melodies.
Am I missing something here?

[qpalqpal]

I'm not very experienced and I'm self-taught, but what I have so far noticed is that doing a bit of everything helps. For example, you start a piece and the first thing you notice is the key; say it's in C major for simplicity's sake. So you do three octaves of the c major scale, up and down. Then arpeggios and chords etc. If you look forward in your piece, see if you can notice it modulate to another key, say to G major. Do that scale, arpeggio etc. Then, relative minors etc . This way, every "exercise" you do is applicable to music, and that your not doing them simply to get "better."

However, I do think it's crucial to know all the keys and how the circle of fifths and fourths function because it helps a lot with sight reading.

Correct me if I am wrong 

[ajspiano]

Technique is simply the way in which you produce sound at the piano, it relates to everything you do with both your body and mind.

What you do is governed by 2 basic principles.
The first is the sound - is it the sound you wish to create.
The second is the 'performability' or 'ease of execution' - meaning that it should feel easy to produce the sound and this is dependent on both what you do physically and mentally.

So initially a students primary 'sound' concern is pitch, second to timing and rhythm. Dynamics are usually somewhere way in the background and a big part of your "technical development is in developing your sensitivity to subtleties in sound quality and cultivating a much stronger sense of rhythm and timing.

That is that the student must develop an understanding of how their playing is different from the ideal as determined by how it sounds.

The teachers job is to draw attention to aspects that student is missing and in turn the students job is to focus mentally on those aspects to produce the newly desired result.

This is largely a mental process. Through on going exposure to playing music you develop a kind of connection between sounds and what it feels like to generate them so you can solve musical discrepancies literally by thinking the sound, the body tags along for the ride. So often if your teacher can demonstrate a musical effect, you will then know what it sounds like,  so then you think the sound as you play and it falls into place.

But.

There are numerous occasions where that doesn't quite work and those are the times where physical instruction can come into play - the second part of the equation - how do I produ.ce the sound in my mind easily, because right now if I think the sound it either doesn't happen or its not comfortable and easy to do.

First port of call when you cant physically produce a sound.. as relating to all aspects - pitch, timing, tempo, dynamics etc.......

There is a big bag of practice tricks and exercises that you apply to the actual piece of music to help solidify the physical technique required to play it without having do do indepth thinking about how to physically move.

alternative rhythm practice
repeated note groups
parallel sets
cycling
dropping notes
etc.

explaining these and when/how to use them is a little beyond this already long post, but essentially they make the physical actions become second nature and allow you to free up mental resources to focus on sound quality.

When that doesn't work you get into exercises and etudes deliberately set to solve a problem.

When I say exercise I'm not talking about hanon/czerny etc I mean small physical actions  either at or away from the piano that strongly highlight principles that relate to movement and how to control movement. The kind of things that help you understand your playing mechanism from a physiological perspective and increase your awsreness of inefficiencies in the way you play and what they "feel" like, as well as what it feels like to play effectively.

Etudes are then set that pound that particular technical concern into a parallel universe..  and the end result is that you can apply newly discovered playing sensations to the original piece of music.

.........

now, after all that I have to say firstly that its an incomplete explanation of my own personal teaching process.

And secondly that you are relatively early in your development and that as a teacher sometimes you have to accept that a student can't improve everything at once and so you may forego the development of musical nuance and technique because you feel there is a greater advantage in pursuing further works, making smaller improvements gradually while exposing the student to more music and improving their reading for example.. which may be what your teacher is doing.

your best solution is to simply ask your teacher if they hsve a plan for your on going study and the reasoning for it, and if you feel like you want advice that your not getting openly bring that up in lesson.

[ajspiano]

There are other at the piano exercises, things like dohnanyi or schmitt, which contain a good amount of holding exercises. These can be enormously valuable if used in the right context.

Given that your teacher is taubman focused though these are unlikely to see the light of day in your lessons. They can be done wrong, really wrong, in such a way that is physically harmful and as such the taubman school is very anti independence exercises of this nature.. Which is not an unreasonable perspective, the trouble is in that they must be done with a great deal of thought about how to execute them, and students are typically to ready to assume they can just practice them mindlessly and after a time their playing will improve - and that just isn't the case.

[danhuyle]

They follow the AMEB, ABRSM or something similar, then BOOM! A virtuoso pianist is born. At least with the piano students university piano teachers have taught.

Learn from a piano teacher with high credentials. They must have high standard interpretations.

A pianist told me I couldn't teach because my playing is low standard. Isn't obvious?

Great pianist = Great teacher = Good student.

[sheraz]

asjPiano,
        Thank you so much for taking out time and sharing your experience with us. Among all the teachers I have had, the first thing they point out about me is that I"m vey musical. I do feel music very deep and can relate to it. They say it's a gift because it's not something a teacher can teach the student. But now at the same time, I feel like it is becoming a kind of curse. When I learn any melody, I know how I want it to sound like and the I cannot because of physical obsticles. I lack the physical freedom. It always gets in the middle. As you clearly pointed out

There are numerous occasions where that doesn't quite work and those are the times where physical instruction can come into play - the second part of the equation - how do I produce the sound in my mind easily, because right now if I think the sound it either doesn't happen or its not comfortable and easy to do.

First port of call when you cant physically produce a sound.. as relating to all aspects - pitch, timing, tempo, dynamics etc.......

There is a big bag of practice tricks and exercises that you apply to the actual piece of music to help solidify the physical technique required to play it without having do do indepth thinking about how to physically move.

alternative rhythm practice
repeated note groups
parallel sets
cycling
dropping notes
etc.

And what I"m looking for is exactly what you described here

explaining these and when/how to use them is a little beyond this already long post, but essentially they make the physical actions become second nature and allow you to free up mental resources to focus on sound quality. When that doesn't work you get into exercises and etudes deliberately set to solve a problem.

About the plan and discussion with my teacher: Even before I started classes with my teacher, I had a detail discussion with her about what is it I want to achieve. But seems like that conversation is lost. Also anything I bring up is judged with Taubman eyes. She did tell me once that she can teach me piano without Taubman but in terms of playing plysically, it is embedded in her muscle memory and that's how she plays. I highly doubt that she will be able to teach me physical aspects of playing outside of Taubman approach.

It is very hard for me to find an experience teacher here in NJ. Fiding a good teacher is very hard. Many pointed out that if someone is a good pianist and teaching, chances are he'll guide you well. Teaching is a art and not everybody can teach. If someone plays very well doesn't mean he/she can teach well too.

Is there any book(s) you can recommend that can guide me in right direction. I want to be able to play with physical freedom and be able to play how I hear it in my head.

thx.

[qpalqpal]

Sometimes I feel the same way, when I try playing pieces that I really love. I feel as though every time I play I make a mistkae and it doesn't sound right. I guess it's a question of precision?

[sheraz]

Sometimes I feel the same way, when I try playing pieces that I really love. I feel as though every time I play I make a mistkae and it doesn't sound right. I guess it's a question of precision?

precision can come from practicing but doesn't matter how much we practice, if the way we play is not right, it will go wrong here and there. As asjPiano pointed out that during playing, all physican aspects should not interfier and focus should purely be on how do we want the melody to sound like.

Now the million dollars question is how do we get to that stage?? And that differs from person to person.

[sheraz]

Great pianist = Great teacher = Good student.

Agreed. But how can you find one :-).

[danhuyle]

Agreed. But how can you find one :-).

University, music schools - Most of these places have teachers with excellent track record with teaching.

Pianists performing in concerts if you can get a chance to talk to the pianist after the performance.

[bronnestam]

Sometimes I feel the same way, when I try playing pieces that I really love. I feel as though every time I play I make a mistkae and it doesn't sound right. I guess it's a question of precision?

Now, I need to warn you, all of you who are frustrated about your "shortcomings" and your mistakes.

DON'T FOCUS ON YOUR MISTAKES WHILE YOU PRACTICE!!!

I have written about this many times before, and I will write it again, and again, because this is so important. I practiced like that for decades - or rather, I practiced less and less because it was no fun. I was whipping myself mentally with all my mistakes. I heard nothing but mistakes. I was furious with myself - why can't I play anything right? So I build up all those negative feelings ... I wanted so badly sit at the piano and play all this wonderful music I loved, and all I heard was an idiot at the keys. Better to find a good recording, then? Yeah. And that is how an active pianist ruins the joy of her own playing and returns to the passenger's seat.

There a millions and millions of ex-pianists in this world, and many of them still love to listen at piano music ...

 

Then I made a 180 degree turn in my thinking and now I make progress like never before. Why? Because I decided to throw all my "goals" away and focus entirely on my PROGRESS. After each practice session - it may be ten minutes or 90 - I ask myself "so, what did I improve now?" I can always find something. It could be some really stupid little thing, but I always find something. I make myself happy with the thought of the things I just learned.

Mistakes? Are just perfections I have not yet learned. I'll learn them too. Stay tuned, I have found some very useful tricks lately.
This seems to be a negligble thing, but I assure it is not. You got to focus on you progress and your achievements. You got to simply ignore your mistakes. The result? You will always leave your piano in a happy mood, as a winner, and be eager to return and keep on practicing. And your mistakes will vanish ... well, everybody makes mistakes from time to time, even the best ones, so don't be upset about them. I have heard the most wonderful and perfect performances, where there pianist made several mistakes, and nobody gave a d*mn. Most of the audience didn't even notice.


But OK - let's say you always make the same stupid mistake every time, or almost every time you play a certain piece. This is a bit dangerous, because every time you make the same mistake, you will program it even harder in your muscle memory. You will keep on making this mistake, getting more and more angry with yourself, and this will affect your whole interpretation of the piece. So, you have to get rid of it.

Worst method, which I unfortunately used for years: play the same part over and over again, hoping that the mistake will vanish by itself, if you only play fast enough - like trying to get over a hurdle by running faster and faster against it ...

Try this one instead:
https://practisingthepiano.com/?p=2610

That is, make a deliberate STOP right before the note that you always get wrong. Deliberate and planned. Play in tempo - STOP - gather your thoughts, plan your next move, place your fingers right, keep on playing ... And yes, you can have this stop even in the middle of a long run. Do this again and again, and your stops will become shorter and shorter and eventually you have programmed yourself to play right, without hitting the wrong key.

Of course you need to analyze your mistakes thoroughly first. Take your time, find out exactly what you are doing wrong. Just repeating the difficult section over and over again, with no further analyzing or mindful thinking, is stupid.

And so the usual tips, of course: play a lot with hands separated, even when you "can" play with both hands. Play very slowly sometimes. Play sometimes so slowly that nobody can tell what piece you are practicing.

Do a lot of mental playing while you are not at the piano. Read the sheet, imagine yourself playing the music, really imagine your movements. And just hum and sing the piece to yourself, make it your "second nature". You should feel it with your whole body. (I am a bad singer myself, so I don't sing aloud, just in my head.)

It is also helpful to record yourself a lot and analyze what your hear afterwards - unfortunately it is not always what we want to hear, because it is very revealing, but it is of good help.

 

[j_menz]

DON'T FOCUS ON YOUR MISTAKES WHILE YOU PRACTICE!!!

No.

Don't let them beat you up in the way bronnestan describes. I agree that is pointless.

But do focus on them. Mistakes are generally made for a reason - bad fingering, misunderstanding of the music, bad movement generally - you need to think about why you are making the mistakes you do, and do something about it. That is especially true for mistakes you make over and over. Ignoring them won't fix them, just ingrain them. Mistakes area learning opportunity - make the most of them.

[bronnestam]

No.

Don't let them beat you up in the way bronnestan describes. I agree that is pointless.

But do focus on them. Mistakes are generally made for a reason - bad fingering, misunderstanding of the music, bad movement generally - you need to think about why you are making the mistakes you do, and do something about it. That is especially true for mistakes you make over and over. Ignoring them won't fix them, just ingrain them. Mistakes area learning opportunity - make the most of them.

Of course I did not mean "ignore" as in "pretend they are not there and they will vanish".
In your mental reactions - yes, IGNORE. That is, don't get upset. Don't waste any emotion at all on them. It's like getting upset over every piece in the world that you cannot play yet.
For educational purposes - do not ignore. Take a mental note, or a note with a pencil if you like, and decide upon a strategy to get rid of them. Then work patiently until you have fixed the problem, still don't get upset over it.
Save your emotions for you successes instead. Make them big in your mind. Take a note there as well. Celebrate. Write about it in your journal. (I do that.) Maybe other people don't stand if you keep on telling them how good you are  , but hey, you can tell yourself.

So, this is what I mean by focusing.