Need help learning to play with both hands

[silverowl]

To be a little more clear, most songs I have learned how to play require both hands, and I do fairly well with them. However, I know this question comes up quite a bit, and I hear a lot to try to think of it in terms that basically your hands will strike two notes at once, but it isn't always that simple. Sometimes a note will be struck between them. What I am trying to achieve is true independence in both hands. I am practicing. Hours each day, but I still struggle.

Any tips, relatable posts, or stories of triumph will be greatly appreciated. TIA

[ajspiano]

To be a little more clear, most songs I have learned how to play require both hands, and I do fairly well with them. However, I know this question comes up quite a bit, and I hear a lot to try to think of it in terms that basically your hands will strike two notes at once, but it isn't always that simple. Sometimes a note will be struck between them. What I am trying to achieve is true independence in both hands. I am practicing. Hours each day, but I still struggle.

Any tips, relatable posts, or stories of triumph will be greatly appreciated. TIA

What repertoire have you worked on already?

Bach inventions/sinfonias, and in turn the WTC are more or less the go to tools for independence of the hands/fingers. All together that makes up a lifetimes worth of study though, and you may not even be ready for the easiest of them..

[ranniks]

I had the same problems about seven months back as you are describing now. I like to watch anime every now and again, and there was this beautiful piece that I just fell in love with. That was before I started the piano. The first time I tried playing it, it was about a month after I started the piano, it went horribly, but now it isn't that hard to read. This piece focuses on the left hand playing at different moments than the right hand.



Example of someone playing it with minor changes:

Also, definitely what ajspiano is saying. Bach inventions.......Are just for that. I can't play them yet. Sometimes I wonder if Bach in general is seperate hands, because even the minuet and march that I can play have moments where you switch hands.

In any case, I wish you luck.

[silverowl]

What repertoire have you worked on already?

Bach inventions/sinfonias, and in turn the WTC are more or less the go to tools for independence of the hands/fingers. All together that makes up a lifetimes worth of study though, and you may not even be ready for the easiest of them..

My repertoire is limited. I have only been playing about 14 months self taught. I have learned to play John Carpenter's classic Halloween theme, The Star Spangled Banner, and the keyboard portion to Motley Crew's Home Sweet Home to name a few. All of which utilize synced octaves and cords/broken cords - very easy for me to learn and play. Some classical pieces I've learned is Beethoven's Moonlight (the entire first movement), and the first minute to Chopin's Op.28 No.4 (the last half of the piece is where I start to have difficulty).

I took myself away from that last one to try to find something a little easier, so I chose to try to learn the original Legend of Zelda dungeon theme. The piece is only 25 seconds or so before it loops, but again, I have difficulty when the left key strokes are seemingly not synced with the right. I have provided a couple links to it for those who care to take a listen.

Tutorial:

Another pianist playing the theme:

I believe I am choosing pieces within my skill level, but that is difficult to do without an instructor. I am working on this as well.

[silverowl]

I had the same problems about seven months back as you are describing now. I like to watch anime every now and again, and there was this beautiful piece that I just fell in love with. That was before I started the piano. The first time I tried playing it, it was about a month after I started the piano, it went horribly, but now it isn't that hard to read. This piece focuses on the left hand playing at different moments than the right hand.



Also, definitely what ajspiano is saying. Bach inventions.......Are just for that. I can't play them yet. Sometimes I wonder if Bach in general is seperate hands, because even the minuet and march that I can play have moments where you switch hands.

In any case, I wish you luck.

Looking at that sheet of music, that is exactly what I'm talking about. Once it gets into the 5th measure and beyond you see where the key presses come simultaneously in the left and right hand (which I can easily do), and then the left hand has notes in between them (my difficulty). It just feels like one of those things like learning how to walk, blow a bubble with your gum, ride a bike, whistle, etc. Your mind has to be trained to do it. I keep hearing that if you can rub your belly with one hand and pat your head with the other at the same time, then you are capable of hand independency. I think I just have to keep at it, and then snap! I'll find myself doing it.

[nystul]

It just takes time.  There are a lot of little issues to overcome with this sort of thing.  At first it is hard enough just to read the music and play two hands without looking back and forth at each hand all the time.  When you start to get the hang of playing eighth note against quarter note, now you will have a piece where one hand is staccato and the other is legato and you will have to work on it.  Then you will have one line you want louder than the other and you will have to teach your brain to be able to handle that.  Then eventually the cross-rhythms where one hand plays triplets and the other does not.

I don't think there is any secret trick to this stuff.  Practice the trouble spots slowly enough to get them right, and eventually they get easier.

[ajspiano]

My suggestions may be a little to hard for you as yet, however I suggest that you consider tackling a few of bach's anna magdelena notebook pieces, and/or small preludes.. If you find you go ok with 2 or 3 of these you can try an invention.

Bach's works, or just counterpoint in general perhaps, is especially good for developing independent coordination - the way the music is constructed is such that it really targets this issue.

You would be wise to consider getting a teacher if it is at all possible.

[silverowl]

It just takes time.  There are a lot of little issues to overcome with this sort of thing.  At first it is hard enough just to read the music and play two hands without looking back and forth at each hand all the time.  When you start to get the hang of playing eighth note against quarter note, now you will have a piece where one hand is staccato and the other is legato and you will have to work on it.  Then you will have one line you want louder than the other and you will have to teach your brain to be able to handle that.  Then eventually the cross-rhythms where one hand plays triplets and the other does not.

I don't think there is any secret trick to this stuff.  Practice the trouble spots slowly enough to get them right, and eventually they get easier.

Yeah, I know it just takes time, patience, perseverance etc. It always helps to hear about others going through the same thing, and stories of earlier times for players much higher in skill level. That being said, I had some success tonight with the Zelda piece. I found the sheet music for it here:

https://musescore.com/user/1369/scores/2096

The fifth and sixth measures is where my progress stopped. I can do the bass cleft solo, the treble cleft solo, but putting them together is where the dependency comes in since the key strokes come at different intervals and no longer played simultaneously. I kept taking it slow, and it very, VERY gradually finally started coming together after hours of practice today, but now my poor fingers have fatigue lol.

I think that initial separation is probably the most difficult to achieve, after that playing different intervals might come easier.. I hope haha.

[minifingers]

I believe the key is lots of practice with your hands separately. You need to know the part for each hand very well, make sure that you sort out your rhythm, dynamics etc at this stage. Break each part up into sections and learn each one well (and always start with the hardest one).

Once you can play the whole of a large section hands separately and well, THEN you can start joining them up to hands together practice. I've just changed my method of learning to doing this and I really shocked myself, I practiced over 2 weeks hands separately learning my piece sections until I could do the whole lot for each and then I started to put it together. I found I could do a 4 bar section hands together, up to speed within 15 minutes of doing it on that piece for the first time. I had never ever played any music piece so well before either, and felt like I had time to  think about both parts and even enjoy the music. Usually I feel like i'm trying to catch up with myself at full speed and I always ended up coupling both hands up in mind so once learnt I couldn't separate anything i'd learnt with hands separately without having to pretty much relearn it. Anyway try it yourself if you haven't already, it's really helped me out and i'm so excited about my progress over the past few weeks I really feel like i've broken though a barrier so I hope this helps you too 

[danthecomposer]

Might I recommend something which does not involve having to learn a piece at the same time?

Think about finger independence as your artillery.  You cannot 'go to war' without having polished and loaded artillery.  Practicing how to aim and fire (learning some pieces) comes after or around the time you have developed good independence and feel ready to start 'firing' it.

Liszt would encourage (and does, through his Technical Exercises, which is my daily dexterity bible) finger independence by starting with finger 'strength' before 'independence'.  You see, developing dexterity is a layered process and not one you can jump straight in to.

Begin by placing your right thumb and left little finger on C's one octave apart (and eventually doing this in all 12 keys, but 'petit ŕ petit, l'oiseau fait son nid' - little by little, the bird makes his nest) and simply play the D, E, F, G simultaneously.  Do this stacatto (individual sound, not nice and smooth, as if plucking a violin string) by playing the note and then lifting the finger completely before playing the next note.  Only ascend, do not descend yet.

Now, close your eyes and do the same thing.  You will, after some minutes, begin to feel the individual muscles in your fingers moving; this is called muscle memory and soon, very soon, you will develop such a muscle memory that almost anything will become automatic without thinking about it.  That is what you need to achieve.

Next, try this is a different key, perhaps F giving the Bb which will cause your right ring finger and little finger to have to strengthen due to the Bb>C spacing on the piano.  Each key develops different finger muscles.  Eb, for example, would develop middle and ringf finger for right hand because of the little reach from G to Ab... etc...

Always shut your eyes once you have got a feel for each key's 5-finger ascending movement.

Congratulations!  This is your first step completed.  Next, descend in the same manner as above.  Then, ascend and descend together (by playing the top note twice, once to end the ascending pattern, once to begin the descending pattern).  After a few days, you will be quite amazed.

This enhanced finger strength, muscle memory and mental awareness will then enable you to do exactly the same as above (up/down/together/different keys/eyes closed) but alternating your fingers.  Little finger of left hand begins, right hand thumb follows; in other words, make your left lead and then the next days, your right hand lead and left follow on note begind.

I promise, in less than 2 weeks, you will have incredibly progressed and then be able to 'fire' your newly-polished 'artillery' at the pieces recommended above.

Remember, each stage invovles:  recognition (eyes open), muscle memory (repetition), internalisation (eyes closed).

Good luck.

[timothy42b]

You're doing "dropping notes," right?

Very effective for this problem.

Also you may need to take this apart in chunks one time to get it down.  It takes a very long time for the first try, but then it's usually learned.