skeptical of teaching method (The Well-Prepared Pianist)

[muntjack]

Hello, I am a 33 year old who has recently begun taking lessons after teaching myself for about a year.  I had an "interview lesson" with my teacher and played for her the post. Nocturne in C#m and Clair de lune. She was very complimentary of my musicality but said my technique was all wrong (wrists too stiff, not enough rotation, etc).  She told me that she came from a school of technique known as "The Well-Prepared Pianist"  and that subscribing to this technique would fix mu issues.

 Having now taken about 8-10 lessons with her, I have learned to relax and rotate my wrists but I'm finding that this method is now getting further and further away from all other schools of technique I've read about.  She insists that my fingers do almost no work, that my wrists rotate high in scale passages (smiles and frowns, she calls it) and my fingers should basically just fall into the keys.  After performing a ghastly version of what I could once play rather well, she will tell me "Excellent!" 

I feel like I was playing well and improving quickly on my own, with no pain or discomfort and so far had not run into anything my technique was hindering.  Now the musicality is suffering and the technique does not feel right at all.  I don't want to give up if this is just part of the process but I'm having serious doubts.  Has anyone here heard of this school by chance?  It was developed by a Korean woman named N. Jane Tan.  I have tried to find opinions/criticisms online but have been unsuccessful.  Any help you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated. 

[ajspiano]

Its hard to find much review on the approach after having a short look around myself, and I won't comment because I'm not at all familiar with it.

However, I would suggest that you may like to check out the taubman approach, which you can find out about at www.golandskyinstitute.org - its initial/primary point of learning is rotation.

There are plenty of raving reviews, and plenty of enormously skeptical ones that point out many potential problems.

Barbara listersink also has an injury preventative method where the primary motion is rotation I believe, I haven't read her book, but if you'd like to its called "freeing the caged bird".

....

In all cases, it is also dependent on the quality of the individual teacher, and how well they know the material and how to apply it both as a pianist and a teacher. Your teacher may have learnt from a WPP teacher, who learnt from some other WPP teacher and ultimately be a very far cry from N. Jane Tan both in ability to teach the skills and even actually having them to an advanced level. However, its probably also too soon for you to tell with your limited experience.

....

You should also be enormously skeptical of a method that tells you anything like all other approaches are wrong, or doesn't allow room for exploration of other ideas. And, one that focuses for an extended period on a physical movement without reference to a sound you are trying to produce comfortably. After all, the point is to sound good as well as feel "relaxed" (its not actually done by relaxing by the way, that's the wrong word. Think about it. Its consciously moving in a comfortable way).

You should take your information from a multitude of sources and be your own judge of what works and what doesn't.

8-10 lessons is nothing by the way. It can take decades of guidance to refine a piano technique.

[dima_76557]

After performing a ghastly version of what I could once play rather well, she will tell me "Excellent!"

You are in a re-training process. With this remark she most likely expressed that she was very satisfied with the way you are adapting to the new method in such a short time. It says virtually nothing about 1) her musical taste or about 2) what you will achieve ultimately as a pianist. Be patient.

[muntjack]

Thank you both so much for your responses. 

AJspiano - I have watched all the Taubman videos and found them helpful.  The technique definitely differs radically from the WPP.   The one thing I should have mentioned is when my teacher plays a piece, it is usually sloppy and the the tone is uncontrolled and irregular.  It's hard for me to determine if the player or the method is to blame. 

dima - This is exactly why I have not quit already.  I know it is a process, I just have no evidence of any good pianists emerging from this school, so I'm trying to find out if the process is worth going through, haha. 

[dima_76557]

The one thing I should have mentioned is when my teacher plays a piece, it is usually sloppy and the the tone is uncontrolled and irregular.  It's hard for me to determine if the player or the method is to blame.

That is a very bad sign. I don't require my teacher to play everything I play at virtuoso level, but the symptoms you describe would be enough for me personally not to continue with such a teacher. This does not mean that the method itself is to blame. It's just that if she doesn't listen to herself, how is she going to teach you to listen to yourself? Without quality listening, there can be no real progress, even if the method itself is healthy.

[viridian]

I'd be skeptical too. While various mainstream methods may emphasize (slightly) some motions over others, they generally all use motions of the fingers, hand, forearm, and upper arm. A flexible wrist is certainly important, but that does not mean a floppy wrist, and it's hard to imagine the wrist being used to the exclusion of finger action, for example in playing scales. (I'm not sure what "wrists rotate high in scale passages" looks like.)

When I first learned to play, before I had a teacher, I found William S. Newman's [The Pianist's Problems/i] very helpful. The chapter(s) on technique discusses the principles of finger, hand and arm motions, without specifying any particular method, and I think it's compatible with most modern methods.

In the end, accurate listening to what you play is the best test of effective technique.

[awesom_o]

Sounds like this 'teacher' is up to no good. 

I'd get out ASAP and get back to what you were learning on your own while you still can!!

[Bob]

I thought it was a book.  It's a whole style of teaching? 

I've heard of it and of Tan.  I thought it was a 'play on word' kind of book title.

[asiantraveller101]

Jane Tan is Chinese, not Korean. More about here: https://www.pianoteams.com/njt.htm
and here: https://wppinstitute.com/

[Bob]

What's the big, different philosophy?

[ajspiano]

The one thing I should have mentioned is when my teacher plays a piece, it is usually sloppy and the the tone is uncontrolled and irregular.

Hooooollly Maggoooooly.

As dima said, with advanced stuff the teacher can't always be expected to nail every piece all the way through on the spot.

You need a teacher that can demonstrate a good aural result of whatever point they are trying to make about the music you're playing though. That's really important.

I'll quote myself if I may..

Your teacher may have learnt from a WPP teacher, who learnt from some other WPP teacher and ultimately be a very far cry from N. Jane Tan both in ability to teach the skills and even actually having them to an advanced level.

[muntjack]

To elaborate on the technique:  say you have a descending scale passage in the RH, fingered 54321.  You begin on 5 with your wrist pointed straight up, your fingers at nearly 90 degrees to the keys, then you rotate your wrist letting your other fingers fall into their keys.  She says this will become less exaggerated as we move along (re-training, I understand) but I see it is still quite a radical look in her playing as well.  The fingers do almost no work. 

 More intermediate and advanced level repertoire seems virtually impossible with her technique, and indeed she has said she cannot play the pieces that I can and she has been teaching for 15 years.  She herself is taking lessons and seems like she is trying to pass down what she is learning but isn't quite sure of it herself. 

I feel bad because I like her as a person, and she told me from the outset that she could not really help me with the pieces I was working on, only to correct my technique and maybe help my sight-reading a bit.  Having never had another teacher, I'm not sure what I should be expecting. 

   

[muntjack]

You need a teacher that can demonstrate a good aural result of whatever point they are trying to make about the music you're playing though. That's really important.

This is exactly what caused my alarm bells to go off.  Why am I spending time and money if this is the result?

[ajspiano]

she told me from the outset that she could not really help me with the pieces I was working on, only to correct my technique and maybe help my sight-reading a bit.  Having never had another teacher, I'm not sure what I should be expecting. 
   

You should be expecting more.

There is a real conflict there, how on earth can one be qualified to teach correct technique at a fundamental level and not be able to help with and perform intermediate level repertoire. Its not possibly to understand technique all that well until you have studied a good number of really tough pieces to a high standard, and even then you're not necessarily able to teach it all that well.

[louispodesta]

The website for this corporation, that is promoting this teaching method, is a follows:
https://wppinstitute.com/

Every time I mention the name of my coach, Thomas Mark, who was as Taubman practice coach, and also studied privately under Bob Durso and Edna Golandsky, I get taken to task.

However, the bottom line is that,  due to the "Cosa Nostra" control that the major music schools and Conservatories have over piano pedagogy, this particular type of "new methodology" is the result.

The good and the bad news is that with websites like Piano Street, a collective intelligence could be brought to bear which would promote a positive educational result.  However, with self-appointed experts like "nyiregyhazi," what usually happens is a degeneration into childish name calling, which in my opinion borders on the legal definition of libel/slander.

As far as the "Well Prepared Pianist" is concerned, it comes across to me as a quasi-"Suzuki" method of piano instruction.   Other than separating a lot of clueless parents from their hard-earned money, it will probably have the same unsuccessful legacy as the Piano Guild Of America.

Hopefully, those of us who truly care can make peace, and then move on to the primary goal which is to make great music.

[maxy]

Piano technique in very few words :

-Fingers and elbows are athletic articulations

-Wrists and shoulders are expressive articulations

I would personally stay far away from any teacher that would suggest otherwise. Yes, working circles with the wrists may prevent unnecessary tension, but you have to work these chops. 

[pyeanno]

I find that I must put my two cents worth in here.   As a student of Jane Tan and a devotee and certified teacher of the Well-Prepared Pianist approach, I feel that her approach has been mis-represented in this thread.  It is the most comprehensive and pedagogically sound approach I have seen in over 30 years of teaching piano.   It is most certainly NOT anything like the Suzuki approach.   If your teacher's modeling of the piece is sloppy, she is not qualified to teach that level.  Teachers should be held to the highest standard of playing, especially on the pieces that are included in the training we receive.   Also, the technical aspects that you are describing sound exaggerated to me.  (Not that you are exaggerating, but that your teacher is....) Actually, your description of the instructions to "not use your fingers at all" are patently incorrect.   The large wrist motions are only for the elementary levels, and only for particular effects in the music.  As the student progresses, he or she cuts down the extent of the gestures.   I don't blame you for beiπg skeptical, and I see that your teacher did say that she could not help you with your advanced pieces.   I would seek another teacher if I were you.  Please don't let one teacher's misrepresentation color your entire opinion of this wonderful approach, which includes much more than just the technical aspect of playing the piano.

[Bob]

I thought that was a book.  What's the teaching philosophy for it?

[keypeg]

You need a teacher that can demonstrate a good aural result of whatever point they are trying to make about the music you're playing though. That's really important.

To me that is almost secondary.  My bigger worry would be that her concept of technique is flawed or semi-understood (same thing) and that it is creating difficulties which will become the student's difficulties.  There are times when you have bad technique, and the remediation will temporarily make you worse before you get better, because of the unfamiliarity and/or transition.  But there are also times that the teaching is flawed, and it will simply get worse and stay that way.

[pianoman8]

Sorry, but it seems like you need a different teacher. From these posts, I get the idea that you have passed your teacher and she is not on a level to help you. If the teacher used to play at a high level but cannot because of a physical problem, that would be a different story. There is no problem with a teacher taking lessons, but it looks like she is still developing her technique and you are beyond her. Also, there is not tons of stuff to be taught about sight-reading, you just have to read many pieces and your skill will increase. Although she may be a great friend, you should find a new teacher. If you feel bad about moving to a different teacher, I'm sure that she would be glad if you offered to play for her every once in while. If you need any clarification on anything let me know:)